This is just some quick thoughts on what Pat Buchanan was saying to Michael Eric Dyson on Hardball about Attorney General Eric Holder calling America a nation of cowards. I for one will put this right out there, I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY.
Eric Holder was not saying that we are cowards overall. He was saying that we strive to conquer almost everything making it a competition of sorts. But, when it comes to race we are less than competitive at eradicating it. And I don’t think that is too much to debate. The only time I can think of when America has decided that these things take time and should be done slowly is with race and poverty. And even poverty seems to be higher on the list and I don’t need to spell that out.
So Pat Buchanan says that black people segregate themselves with things such as the black caucus, black Miss America and the black Negro college fund. Then turns right around and start talking about how the white man is not responsible for out of wedlock birth rates for blacks or the crime rate of blacks. Now if I am not mistaking when he decides to separate blacks out from America to point out this crap he himself has just segregated us.
Shouldn’t all these statistics be combined as American statistics or does it serves some purpose to separate them by race. Did black people decide that they were going to segregate themselves into these statistical columns? Somehow we should stop calling things black this or that but, the alternative is to see all white college funds, Miss America (whiteness implied) or political affiliations. And somehow that isn’t a problem as long as it isn’t “called” white.
This is the joke that is being passed off for diversity. Even if something is predominantly white or just outright all white as long is isn’t “called” white then it isn’t offensive. I have written posts about this before. People want to point the finger at all these so called black things not ever paying attention to the plethora of things that are for white people as if they don’t exist.
Pat Buchanan starts his conversations off that if “white men” want to talk honestly about race they will get a big backlash. But if what you are saying is racist bullshit then of course you should hear a backlash from it. When you say things like blacks owe white people gratitude for bringing them here to America as slaves because now they are American Christians. As if that somehow negates all the bad things they have been going through since day one.
The problem is that the dialog on race is usually tainted and loaded. We can’t discuss how there is a large disparity between the races without hearing about how criminal and immoral blacks are. You hear how tired white’s are of hearing it. You hear how blacks should just come up with a plan and then boom we can fix it all. None of these things is conducive to repairing any of the damage.
And yes, I already know that a lot of white people will say that harping on an issue such as racism is not conducive to them either. But, think about this, if we fixed the freaking problem people would stop harping about it. And no we have NOT fixed the problem. We just put a band aid on the problem and decided that black people should now shut up about it. And until we can stop being such cowards in this country hiding from racial equality and actually tackle the problem without segueing into idiocy, we will continue to be forced to walk on eggshells on both sides.
The Black Sentinel 
I’m beginning to feel like the people who Holder was addressing know who they are and on the defense. These are the very people who would rather us NOT talk about race because they feel guilty. The people who don’t care either way are secure in their convictions. There are still Black people out there who don’t want to be around White people, children who have never seen a White person in real life in the inner cities and that needs to be addressed as well. This isn’t totally a one sided thing but the way White conservatives are reacting is making this into a dreadful debate about why we DON’T need to talk or DO need to talk about something and that’s ridiculous.
I tripped out when the “technical issues” started to arise when Dr. Dyson was get’n in that ass. HA!
Having Pat Buchanan arguing anything related to Black people is ridicules. His misleading and down right false numbers only add to his racist mind set. White people will never, ever, ever admit that this “white dominated” society has damaged every minority in this country. Whites sit at the top of the heap with Native american, Black african, Mexican, Japanese (I could go on and on) blood on their hands and they feel completely guiltless. Watching Pat gleefully talk about black gang rapes and out of wedlock births in the black community with blatantly false numbers(which have been discussed on this site brilliantly) was just, to coin the phrase from Mr Holder, COWARDLY!
Chayah Cheron,
I agree with you all the way. This is constantly the case with the blog. People comment acting as if I wrote something directly to them. And then wonder why we can’t get the ball rolling on a dialog that might enable us to begin putting the pieces together.
Thanks for the reply.
Cinque,
So very true! And why doesn’t he tell us the numbers for white people? Why do racists only want to use per capita numbers? Always, with the blacks as a group commit 70% this or that crime. Yet, when we look at the numbers whites commit more crimes OVERALL than anyone else. So, who do you worry about the 10 people out of 1000 or the 100 people out of 1000?
This is just ridiculous to continue this phony crap about blacks segregating themselves to only turn around and segregate us with statistics and numbers. Pat Buchanan is full of his own tripe. And he feels that we owe him and those like him a debt of gratitude. Give me a break!
Thanks for the reply.
All of this just goes to show: If the shoe fits, wear it. If you don’t think you are part of the problem, you probably are. And if you can’t listen, be sure you are. Not everyone whose skin is light and whose ancestors come from Europe is a “white man.” Some people don’t want to get it, because that would mean they aren’t superior just equal.
Helenl,
I totally agree with you. A lot and I mean a LOT of the people who I am talking about are NOT white. When it comes to racially problematic people, they are from all walks of life. Listening has to go both ways. We must DIALOG and that means that everyone gets a say. And we have to stop with the sidetracking. It isn’t about slavery (though that hasn’t fully been forgotten nor dealt with) and it isn’t about what the black communities problems are with out of wedlock births etc. It is about privilege and disparity. We must all be willing to openly deal with the actuality of life in America from the view of those on the losing end of privilege and disparity.
Just like it would be hard to have an honest dialog about poverty with a rich person who doesn’t believe that there is a disparity between them and the poor. Again honesty and freshly open minds are what it is going to take.
Thanks for your reply.
I knew you would post about this. I was hoping you would post about this. I posted the entire speech and video, and the reason I did is because as usual the media took one sound bite and fed it over and over again. I actually listened to something on YouTube where an obvious racist white man was saying, “They have a black President, what else do they want?” Like you, I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with Attorney General Holder. I understood exactly what he was saying. The Hardball video is a prime example of why we can’t have healthy discussions about race.
I’m just pissed off because the media chooses not to show more of the speech and only a sound bite. That’s so typical.
PVDugas,
The media can’t create controversy which sells ads due to higher ratings. They know that the statement is true and they are living proof. If you can take a part of a statement that someone says such as Holder or Rev. Wright and play them over and over just to get the same racist outrage it is very telling. And Hardball showed exactly why it is almost impossible to have a good discussion about race. It always breaks down into whether or not blacks have the highest rate of this bad thing or another as if that somehow is justification for all of our racial problems. Oh man don’t get me started. This all sounds like another post or two.
Thanks for the reply.
You’re honestly calling statistical breakdowns a form of segregation?
Regardless, racism is hard to talk about because its two major parts don’t fit together nicely. The macro scale (crime statistics, poverty statistics, policy, etc) and micro scale (singular people and their opinions) are not just larger and smaller versions of each other. The macro scale is unbelievably complex, and the variables added from micro—-> macro make the picture very fuzzy.
Statistics indicate problems, not inherent characteristics. They’re a way of diagnosing problems. But just like how different diseases produce the same symptoms, many different things can cause or contribute to (and many do) the macro scale racial imbalances.
“Pat Buchanan starts his conversations off that if “white men” want to talk honestly about race they will get a big backlash. But if what you are saying is racist bullshit then of course you should hear a backlash from it. When you say things like blacks owe white people gratitude for bringing them here to America as slaves because now they are American Christians”
Again, do you honestly believe that’s where Buchanan was going with that? The absurdity of your hypothetical reaffirms Buchanan’s statement. You went from white person talks about racism, to “[white person] saying racist bullshit”, in seven words. Does that automatic jump tell you anything about what Buchanan was talking about?
“The problem is that the dialog on race is usually tainted and loaded. We can’t discuss how there is a large disparity between the races without hearing about how criminal and immoral blacks are. You hear how tired white’s are of hearing it. You hear how blacks should just come up with a plan and then boom we can fix it all. None of these things is conducive to repairing any of the damage.”
Entirely subjective, and completely full of exaggeration. THIS kind of rant is not conducive to anything.
Sean,
You’re honestly here to say that Pat Buchanan wants an honest conversation that will actually result in the end of white privilege. The fact that you believe in such fairy tales is proof of the problem on the micro scale. You, the individual, singularly dismiss the prejudice that Mr. Buchanan starts his conversations with. Just open your eyes and look at what Mr. Buchanan had to say when Mr. Obama called for a dialog last year:
If these programs were designed for the benefit of black people then I would agree with Mr. Buchanan’s loaded statement. But the vast majority of benefactors in each and every one of these programs is not the black community but the white community. Yes, it’s true that a lot of money has gone into these programs but it’s also true that the vast majority of that money has gone to the white community. The black community only receives a fraction of these resources. So how in the world can this be evidence of America’s generosity to black people?
You sound like an intelligent person. So how can you not do a little research to understand a little more about the racial skewed theories of Mr. Buchanan? Instead, you limit your focus to only one side of the issue. Your statements only confirms theblacksentinel’s hypothesis. You, the individual on the micro scale, refuses to take a look at the entire picture. If a single black person is able to take advantage of anything then it was a program that benefited black people and therefore America is off the hook because it spent so much to help black people. Such a hypothesis is entirely subjective and completely full of exaggeration.
But in typical circle the wagons fashion, people who want to protect white privilege will only see the exaggeration of people who want to tear white privilege down and create a truly racially equal environment. And all these people bundled into the American culture make the macro scale that wants to point to crime statistics and poverty statistics from other individuals who comprise their own individual micro environments designed to protect white privilege by proving the criminal and unproductive nature of black people with statistics. Your comments are nothing more than a somewhat weak attempt to protect the racial status quo.
Unfortunately, unlike theblacksentinel who is working against the majority, your comments are very productive to reinforcing the goals of the macro community. This is just more proof of Mr. Holder’s contention that America does not want to honestly confront the issues of racism.
Peace
Shh, screw the rates. Lets talk about why… lets talk about those good white kids with futures, attitude.
Let’s talk about how they didn’t want us to be in their church’s… maybe that is why you we have black churchs and black this and black that… Let’s talk about these things!!!
Maybe juuuuuust maybe we’ll find a cause somewhere in those numbers… and maybe we’ll find some new numbers… Like how many whites sat by and allowed those lynchings… matter of fact let’s get a number of the sheriffs and judges that allowed those men to go free when they knew they were guilty of murder… matter of fact the freak’n judge was probably there!!!!
How fuck’n much has changed since then. Let’s talk about that frack’n number!!!
Sean,
I guess Pat Buchanan saying that since black people have an unwed mother rate of 70% and that is one of the reasons for racial strife is helpful? Because the last time I checked there was racial strife when black people didn’t have an unwed mother problem or whatever.
And yes SEAN I do believe that is where Pat Buchanan is going with what he said because THAT IS WHAT HE HAS SAID. If you read the things he says then maybe you wouldn’t be on here talking as if I AM MAKING THIS SHIT UP. I guess the knee jerk reaction is to just ASSume that the white person means no harm and support or make excuses for their diatribe. But unless you actually go and listen and read everything that Pat Buchanan talks about then you really have no conversation now do you?
The problem is that Pat Buchanan is is completely full of exaggeration and so are you. For one thing you want to support a man who has said and constantly says racist things all the while complaining that I am on a rant that isn’t conducive. Until you show me how what Pat Buchanan says is conducive to furthering any good conversation on race relations please don’t bother to comment.
Also, on you retarded points about statistics. I never said that statistics were not valuable. What I was saying for those who need help, is that statistics mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHEN WE ARE DISCUSSING RACISM AND HOW TO GET BEYOND IT. The problem is that Pat Buchanan says that blacks continue to separate themselves from white people then turns around and separates them using stats. Why doesn’t he or any other person in the media ever show the stats for white people and their problems. I mean if stats show something so important to race relations shouldn’t we hear that white people have a larger overall out of wedlock birth rate?
So until you or Pat B can explain what out of wedlock births or prison rates have to do with white people justifying racism then I guess we don’t need to hear it in this supposed “honest dialog on race relations.”
Thanks
Well, this discussion is surely a back and forth!!
Now seriously… I read an article by Leonard Pitts today. For those readers who do not know who he is, he is an editorialist with the Miami Herald, and is black. His column discussed a facet of Holder’s speech. Basically saying that we speak about race all the time, yet we don’t really have the meaningful and honest discussions. Blacks play the “gotcha” game, and whites try to ignore anything that may ruin their fantasy world. We don’t talk about race, we yell around the subject. In recent years, he points out that the discussion on race has been dominated by the loud, intoerant voices…on both sides, while the good people on both sides remain silent and fatigued from their compassionate ways.
Blacks can point to Buchanan and his racist rhetoric as an example of the dominant community using words and media to influence the world to keep the status quo in place, and deny any actual problems with the system.
And whites can point to black’s reception of Obama’s Father’s Day speech last year (and their pointing out “but what about the white people’s attitudes ad actions?”), as an example of blacks just being complainers.
Both sides are right, and in some of those points ont he micro scale, both sides are wrong, because, as Mr Pitts, and Mr Holder point out…we really are just yelling around it all. Maybe because we dont trust the other side to have the honest discussions, or maybe because neither side knows where to even start.
Just a thought..
The fact that Pat B. is allowed to spew this anytime he wants goes to the sentiment that we don’t get a fair platform. Whilst Dr. Dyson (an intellectual)was try’n to have a true conversation about it while Pat (an old time politician a republican politician at that) just couldn’t wait to point out his funky ass numbers.
I found it ludacrous that they even put those two men against each other.
How about a dialogue between two men that really care and not towing a line. We blacks can’t talk to whites about shit until they acknowledge and release the taught hate.
The taught hate that manifests itself when the powers that be put up 3 white men to one black guy and call that a conversation of race with the black guy being a conservative republican. (I’m referring to a panel that CNN had, I think it was Lou Dobbs)
We need serious talk on a national level. But I guess we won’t get that with 5 white dudes owning all the frack’n nation media outlets.
Brother peace maker,
The programs you listed (outside of medicare, Pell grants, and student loans) target the lower income bracket of the United States. Black people haven’t made up more than 13% of the U.S. population. Would you really expect the total dollar amount to be equal to that of whites? When dealing with overviews like this all you really have are percentages. If the problem is that black people make up too much of that lower class (for their population size), reasoning should tell you that the programs DO benefit them more. Does it mean enough is being done or that responsibility is now totally on the individual? Of course not. But these programs are significant.
Statistics is the ruler by which we measure racism.
White privilege is the name of a single interpretation of those statistics. It implies a more sinister view. I’m more a fan of economic models myself. It all goes back to blacks representing too large a percentage of the lower income. Poverty is an unkind mother. I don’t agree with Pat Buchanan’s rhetoric, but he never actually answered the question. When asked what what people talk about, he laughed and said “you’re going to get fired upon”, but then went off to address the issue of the Attorney General calling us a “nation of [race] cowards”. He didn’t address what white and black people could talk about, he ended up getting in a shouting match and trying to “win” an argument.
Brother Peace Maker, the first two paragraphs of your post is what I want to see more of. The second half is full of things like this:
“Your comments are nothing more than a somewhat weak attempt to protect the racial status quo. ”
Textbook example of an ad hominem argument.
———
Black Sentinel,
Most of what I said to Brother Peace Maker also applies to your post. I was never defending Pat Buchanan, I just don’t think he ever got around to answering the question. That’s why I said “You honestly think that’s where Pat Buchanan “WAS GOING”. All he ended up talking about was the coward issue the Attorney General brought up. Regardless, Pat Buchanan is not the spokesman for white people. Average people are usually a lot more boring.
And once again, you’re honestly calling statistical breakdowns a form of segregation? Please explain how statistical separations based on race (without which there is no way to measure progress or the lack their of) is a form of segregation. Please understand that coming to that conclusion is like saying all fish are the same size because they’re fish.
Sean,
Yes, those programs target lower income people and your point is? “Poverty rates for white Americans are the lowest of any racial group, with 8.6% of white individuals living below the poverty line (3% below the national average). However, due to whites’ majority status, 48% of Americans living in poverty are white.”(wikipedia) So, when you are going to try and support Pat B’s statement that blacks have received all these untold payments through these programs supposedly bringing them into the mainstream then shouldn’t blacks be receiving these benefits alone? If indeed as Pat says they are to bring BLACKS into the mainstream? The programs are for poor people not some payback to blacks for damages of some sort. That is just preposterous.
I am NOT calling them a form of segregation. I said they are being USED as a form of segregation. When you try and use statistics to show why people are being racially discriminated against there is a problem. I don’t care what statistics you or Pat B pull out it does NOT justify racism, case closed. Also, we are talking about wanting everyone to be American and not segregate themselves then how can you break statistics down by race. What purpose does it serve? Aren’t we all the same just good ole Americans? So if that is what you mean by segregation with statistics then so be it. I still believe that if we are going to pull statistics out of our asses then we need to see the statistics on everyone not just constantly using them against blacks.
You want to consistently try and give merit to or, as was said previously, try and protect him and his statements. This is why talks about race go in circles. The constant need to show that blacks have been paid back, blacks are statistically the problem and that any conversation to the contrary are little more textbook examples of an ad hominem argument. So round and round we go. When will you and Pat B honestly answer questions as to why blacks are the majority of the poverty stricken or why we have twice the unemployment rate? Because statistics can only tell one side of the story. And as far as I can see the other side is generally called a textbook ad hominem argument. Because there seems to be NO amount of evidence that would convince Pat B (and maybe yourself, I don’t know) that anything other than blacks being lazy and loving a handout is the cause for these conditions.
Thanks
My point is that the only way to objectively look at which group is benefiting more from social programs, is to look at it by percentage. There are more blacks as a percentage “benefiting” (I use the term loosely) from the programs listed above. Buchanan is guilty of choosing his words poorly, because the programs were certainly not created with the sole intent of helping to elevate blacks. If your problem is with him crediting white Americans with being purely altruistic in that way, then I agree with you. That being said, I would find it hard to believe that the racial implications of these programs was absent during their creation.
“I still believe that if we are going to pull statistics out of our asses then we need to see the statistics on everyone not just constantly using them against blacks.”
It must be frustrating to always have complex social problems packed into cut and dry numbers. I’ll agree it’s something white people don’t deal with to the same extent as blacks. And again, statistics shouldn’t be used to show reasons for discrimination. I specifically said they should be used to measure progress we make one way or the other. Statistics also have uses in understanding (not excusing or justifying) why discrimination and its symptoms exist. Understanding goes a long way for both sides when it comes to making racial progress.
Please carefully read my posts. Many of the things you claim I say are either nowhere in my posts, or clarified further in another.
“When will you and Pat B honestly answer questions as to why blacks are the majority of the poverty stricken or why we have twice the unemployment rate?”
There isn’t one answer. Most people can’t stay rational when discussing the many heads of that hydra of a question. But we can all ask ourselves that question, because we all have a stake in it as human beings.
Sean,
You mean the programs Pat Buchanan listed. For every dollar spent on the black community through these programs several dollars are spent in the white community. The white community is the greatest benefactor of this program. If I get a dime for every dollar spent but someone else gets ninety cents they benefit nine times more than I do. If I’m broke and the other person is a billionaire, they still benefit much more than I do. No one said these programs are not significant. That’s not even the issue here. The issue is that people want to make it appear that America has done so much to uplift the black community after so many years of keeping the black community stuck in the deepest pit of poverty and ignorance. The black community is not the greatest benefactor of these programs if by comparison the portion directed to the black community is only a fraction of the size destined for the white community.
White privilege is a single interpretation of this condition just as much as a “retention incentive” is a single interpretation of AIG’s bonus payments. A rose by any other name will still smell like a rose. Fecal matter by any other name will still smell like dung. Let’s not call it white privilege. Let’s call it advantageous Caucasoid living standards. You only want to look at statistics. Let’s look even further than simply scratching the surface. Let’s examine why the black community represents too large a percentage of the lower income group.
And I don’t even care about some ad hominem argument classification. Your facts are nothing more than a single interpretation of a larger condition. If this was nothing more than a question of numbers and percentages then, with the black community making only thirteen percent of the total population, many people would say the racial status quo isn’t worth trying to make an environment of equality. As far as your interpretation of this condition, it sounds like a textbook example of crewsay ethay lackbay ommunitycay.
As long as the ratio of black people who are helped to black people who are left to their own devices is larger than the number of white people who are helped compared to white people who are left to their own devices then the black community has greater benefit. Let’s dismiss the fact that black people who receive that extra aid still have to pay more for living condition of lesser quality, are more often passed over for employment and opportunities for advancement, have to pay more for credit and the like. All that matters to you are ratios and percentages and per capitas of single instances of micro conditions. We can study the situation better if we remove the human element and break it all down to a sequence of numbers that proves that the ratio of black people being benefited outweighs the number of white people who benefit and therefore racism is not the problem that people think it is. Sounds like someone who is trying to downplay racial disparity as nothing more than a formula on a spreadsheet.
Peace
“For every dollar spent on the black community through these programs several dollars are spent in the white community. If I get a dime for every dollar spent but someone else gets ninety cents they benefit nine times more than I do.”
Your analogy doesn’t fit. It should be something like: If 10 people get a dollar, and 100 other people get a dollar, individuals still get the same amount of money. The group sizes are different, so of course each group isn’t receiving the same amount of money. This isn’t rocket science. If you’re taking issue with him crediting white Americans with being purely altruistic in that way (this is taken from my last post), then I agree with you. That being said, I would find it hard to believe that the racial implications of these programs was absent during their creation.
“White privilege is a single interpretation of this condition just as much as a “retention incentive” is a single interpretation of AIG’s bonus payments. A rose by any other name will still smell like a rose. Fecal matter by any other name will still smell like dung. Let’s not call it white privilege. Let’s call it advantageous Caucasoid living standards. You only want to look at statistics. Let’s look even further than simply scratching the surface. Let’s examine why the black community represents too large a percentage of the lower income group.”
You wouldn’t know the percentages without statistics. They allow us to have these conversations. My last post addressed this too. I’m not asking for a euphemism for white privilege. I’m saying that white privilege is just one way of explaining complex racial problems.
“Let’s dismiss the fact that black people who receive that extra aid still have to pay more for living condition of lesser quality, are more often passed over for employment and opportunities for advancement, have to pay more for credit and the like. All that matters to you are ratios and percentages and per capitas of single instances of micro conditions. We can study the situation better if we remove the human element and break it all down to a sequence of numbers that proves that the ratio of black people being benefited outweighs the number of white people who benefit and therefore racism is not the problem that people think it is. Sounds like someone who is trying to downplay racial disparity as nothing more than a formula on a spreadsheet.”
Who is downplaying anything? Please explain to me how YOU measure racism or racial progress, without comparing how it was “yesterday” to how it is “today”. I’d like to see your evidence for all the claims you make in the beginning of you last paragraph.
“And I don’t even care about some ad hominem argument classification. Your facts are nothing more than a single interpretation of a larger condition. If this was nothing more than a question of numbers and percentages then, with the black community making only thirteen percent of the total population, many people would say the racial status quo isn’t worth trying to make an environment of equality. As far as your interpretation of this condition, it sounds like a textbook example of crewsay ethay lackbay ommunitycay.”
What is equal to you? Equal numbers or equal percentages? They’re very different.
I’m going to ignore any comment like your pig latin. It gets people nowhere.
Sean,
I really don’t think your analogy of my analogy fits. In my analogy I am comparing a single entity to a single entitiy, not black communities to a number of white communities. If might as well be rocket science because you simply fail to understand. Relatively speaking rocket science is simple because it is nothing more than the study of physics and physics deals with constants that cannot be manipulated. The science of racism has to deal with human behavior and perspectives on numbers and percentages and statistics and we know how statistics can be manipulated. This ratio is better because it proves my point while that ratio doesn’t apply because it proves your point.
You miss the issue entirely. While you’re busy trying to reduce racial disparity down to a series of numbers and percentages I’m trying to tell you that the degree of racism is more than a product of a single mathematical formula. If you want to use numbers, use all the numbers to explain the entire situation. To say the percentage of the black people who benefit from a social program is higher therefore the program benefits black people more is a micro scaled example of the individual skewing the system.
For example, there is a program to hire a hundred people, two people are black and ninety eight or white. The community consist of ten black people and a thousand white people. Twenty percent of the black population benefit while less than ten percent of the white community is helped. With ninety eight percent of the people benefiting from the employment program being white it is rather foolish to consider the program a greater benefit to the black community. We can point to this and say that less than ten percent of the white community benefited but a whopping twenty percent of the black community was helped so this program is a greater benefit to the black community. Anyone who claims that this is evidence that that black community is the greater benefactor is obviously taking a rather skewed assessment of the situation.
Now, while we are focusing on the percentages of the numbers of this fictitious analogy, do we ever ask the question why is it that there are only ten black people in a population of just over a thousand. Do the black people have equal pay? Will the black people have equal opportunities for advancement? Because we know we have a history of racial discrimination we have to keep close tabs on the situation in order to assure that everything looks fair. Maybe the population that so heavily favors white people is one of those sundown towns where the vast majority of black people were harassed to leave. Maybe the town’s racial ratio is managed with a heavy handed approach to law enforcement who use their own statistics to focus the majority of resources to the policing of black people. Maybe the services offered the black community are woeful compared to the services offered the white counterpart.
If you want to use nothing but numbers to prove your point then please use all the numbers, percentages and ratios, and report them all in the macro scale. That way, when we try to determine why the numbers are what they are, we can look at the entire picture and its history of how things got the way they are. To simply point at a single set of numbers, percentages or actual, does little to explain conditions.
I have to agree with you that white privilege is only one way to describe this racial condition. Another accurate way to describe the racial disparity we tolerate would be terms like black subjugation or black community neglect. A term that we know that we cannot accurately use to describe our national condition would be things like black privilege or white community neglect.
You think my pig latin isn’t helpful. I really don’t think your obscure Latin reference are very helpful either.
Peace
Mike Lovell’s smartass comment for the day:
“Rocket science is simple because physics deals with constants that cannot be manipulated.” – Brother P
Um, actually it isn’t simple, because besides standard physics, rocket science also involves quantum mathematics, which involves constants which can change at the flick of a hat, which standard physics can’t deal with on a simple level. My new brother-in-law works for NASA as an engineer, and has attempted to explain some of this to me…..interestingly enough a football game on tv distracted me from even coming close to understanding. But I sure gave him a lot of “uh-huhs” and “well that sounds right”. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t buying it.
Mike Lovell,
I don’t think the Russians used quantum mathematics to put Sputnik in space. I think that was good ol’ fashion superior thrust to gravity ratio. The latest round of rocket science may take advantage of quantum mathematics. But even that’s simple compared to the ever changing fluctuations of human perceptions. The key word was “relative”.
Peace
“From bad to worse? NASA in culture conflict since Columbia”
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2005-04-23-NASA-culure-clash_x.htm
A few excerpts:
“…
Accident investigators chastised NASA for reverting to the same type of flawed management that contributed to the Challenger launch explosion 17 years earlier.
For Columbia, that meant ignoring engineers’ worries about the potential damage from the foam strike, fostering an atmosphere in which these same engineers were afraid to speak up, and creating intense schedule pressure for shuttle flights to complete work on the international space station.
…”
“Wayne Hale’s Blog”
“Stifling Dissent”
http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/waynehalesblog.blog/posts/post_1233287218005.html
A few excerpts:
“…
During the long days of returning the space shuttle to flight the question frequently came up as to how we were doing changing the culture. My answer, as honest as I could make it, was that we were making progress, making changes, improving the situation, but that changing the culture was hard and we had a long way to go.
…
The video attached was their result. I found it extraordinarily funny and not at all funny. These young people have obviously found themselves in situations RECENTLY in which managers at various levels applied sociological and psychological pressures to keep them from bringing ideas forward.
I am convinced that if we asked the managers who were the models for this little morality play whether they stifled dissent or welcomed alternate opinions, they would respond that they were welcoming and encouraging. Probably because they have that self image.
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I feel like the early civil right pioneers must feel; the overt bad behavior is gone underground. People say the right things in public discussion of how they should act, then behave in the bad old ways in small or private settings.
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Well, that is enough to start with. Looks like we still have a long way to go and the first step is to know that you still have a problem.”
This is NASA.
It seems that the sociological problems still plaguing NASA today are like the same sociological problems still plaguing America today.
To further emphasize the identification of the sociological problem, I would like to share small story. Within the week after the Space Shuttle Columbia burned up in the atmosphere, I showed a high school student on our bus that he had enough education to determine how badly Columbia was damaged due to the foam strike. I explained it was all a simple matter of relative energy impacts. Three pounds of foam striking a wing at 1500 mph versus, for example, an AK-47 bullet (estimated to be 1 once) striking a wing at 750 mph (estimated speed). Kinetic energy = 0.5 x mass x velocity^2. Just divide one kinetic energy over the other kinetic energy: ( 3 lbs x 1500mph^2 ) / ( 1 oz x 750mph^2 ) which becomes 48 x 2^2 which becomes approximately 200. I told the high school student that Columbia’s wing was subjected to an impact roughly equivalent to 200 riflemen shooting an AK-47 at the same spot at the same time. This high school student knew the damage that one AK-47 bullet could do; it was a no brainer to understand what 200 AK-47 bullets would do. This high school student ran to show his science teacher the simple calculation. Guess what the science teacher did?
The science teacher put this high school student on detention and started proceedings to have him expelled.
Nothing happened to the high school student. I guess cooler heads prevailed, but the science teacher demanded to know from the high school student where he got this “stupid nonsense” regarding the 200 AK-47 bullets.
The whole matter dissipated, and I never got the chance to confront the science teacher (I would have been happy to put this science teacher in his/her place, but alas, I was not asked to do so).
As it turned out, one year later, millions of dollars spent, the NASA Engineers (excuse me, engineers) finally came to the same conclusion in an physical experiment. If these engineers knew their stuff and were not cowards, seven lives could have been saved.
Like this high school student, Americans are punished whenever knowledge is brought forward to combat ignorance.
Racism is just another form of ignorance, and Mr. Holder is correct that Americans are cowards for not trying to combat ignorance.
One cannot discuss racism using statistics. It was a former British Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, who made a comment about “lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Using statistics, one can easily hide the damage of a pathological culture.
Statistics can be used to measure if something is working or not, and if something is not working, then we have two options: one, change that something; or two, alter the statistics to make that something look like it is working.
Too often, as a society, we just alter the way statistics look. Just manipulate the mathematics, and make sure no one knows mathematics in order to maximize ignorance.
By the way, if anyone here has a relative that just recently started employment with NASA, my advice is to RUN (not walk) away.
NASA is the General Motors of aerospace.
Thank you for listening.
I understood your analogy just fine. I said it doesn’t fit the real world. Black people do not receive less per person from the listed programs than white people. I seriously doubt there’s even a way for race to even be known on the applications to most of them. But then again, I may be underestimating just how sinister we white people are.
“While you’re busy trying to reduce racial disparity down to a series of numbers and percentages I’m trying to tell you that the degree of racism is more than a product of a single mathematical formula.”
Since you ignored it, I’ll ask again. Please explain to me how YOU measure racism or racial progress, without comparing how it was “yesterday” to how it is “today”.
“To say the percentage of the black people who benefit from a social program is higher therefore the program benefits black people more is a micro scaled example of the individual skewing the system.”
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You are not reading my posts
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Please quote for me, a single part of my posts that claim black people benefit more from a single program. All I’ve done in these post is go on and on about how complex the race problem is. You seem to be the one oversimplifying everything into the most cliche’, dogmatic, and personal language possible.
“To simply point at a single set of numbers, percentages or actual, does little to explain conditions. ”
Again, can I ask for a quote? What single set up numbers?
“You think my pig latin isn’t helpful. I really don’t think your obscure Latin reference are very helpful either. ”
You wouldn’t be the first person to use that fallacy as a crutch and not like being called out on it.
Sean,
You wouldn’t be the first person to use numbers and percentages to minimize the impact of racism. Your numbers don’t fit the real world. You keep talking about per capita programs when we are talking about the black community. “I seriously doubt there’s even a way for race to even be known on the applications to most of them. But then again, I may be underestimating just how sinister we white people are.” Finally! Some admission that your numbers fall pathetically short when discussing this issue.
“Since you ignored it, I’ll ask again. Please explain to me how YOU measure racism or racial progress, without comparing how it was ‘yesterday’ to how it is ‘today’.”
Before I answer your question I’d like to take a moment to explain to you how you don’t measure racism. You don’t boil everything down to numbers and ratios and percentages. Racism is more closely associated with history than rocket science. And I don’t know too many people who study history by looking at percentages. History is more closely associated with behavior and happenings and not with numbers. Nobody ever says something like we need to discuss the triggers to America’s civil war by looking at per capita numbers for the people of the north compared to the people of the south. Imagine someone seeing the limp form of a black person hanging from a tree and saying, we need to measure this event to the events of the past to see if racism is a problem. An extreme example I’ll admit. Nevertheless, it is a prime example of how a condition or event in and of itself is the only thing necessary to show racial disparity.
We have to study racism a little more because we simply don’t understand the impact of racism without numbers is to dismiss the very nature of the problem. All you have to do is take a look. But instead you need proof by numbers. You still need quotes?
Of course, we already know that you won’t be the first to say that your quotations are being taken out of context.
Peace
Engineer,
“One cannot discuss racism using statistics. It was a former British Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, who made a comment about “lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Using statistics, one can easily hide the damage of a pathological culture.”
People can use the internet to look at porn, or to research cancer treatments. Statistics are not an absolute good, they are just data. I hope this whole conversation doesn’t revolve around the point that something CAN be used in a bad way. Water can be used to drown someone. Love can be used to blackmail.
Data =/= Truth.
Data + interpretation + x amount of variables = some idea of what’s going on. I realize you don’t like the whole numbers/math angle Brother, but it’s just breaking down a paragraph into a simpler form.
“Statistics can be used to measure if something is working or not, and if something is not working, then we have two options: one, change that something; or two, alter the statistics to make that something look like it is working.”
That says nothing about statistics, and everything about how they’re used once you have them.
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Brother,
“You wouldn’t be the first person to use numbers and percentages to minimize the impact of racism. Your numbers don’t fit the real world. You keep talking about per capita programs when we are talking about the black community.”
I use numbers to measure progress, period. They don’t tell you how to solve a problem or why the problem exists, but they are the starting point for every race conversation (about the grand scheme) that holds an iota of merit. The only reason I’m harping on this numbers issue, is because you’re being completely hypocritical when you argue against their use. Which brings me to:
“Before I answer your question”
Did you end up answering it?
Even the doctor from Georgetown in the video that started all this didn’t dispute their use. His problem was never hearing any white statistics to “share the pain”.
“Imagine someone seeing the limp form of a black person hanging from a tree and saying, we need to measure this event to the events of the past to see if racism is a problem.”
You wouldn’t have to measure the event to anything. But something happening everywhere a lot, says more than something happening almost never, and in a very specific place. That’s not to downplay the horribleness of even a singular occurrence of a lynching, I just don’t think you can automatically draw any large scale conclusions for it.
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“I seriously doubt there’s even a way for race to even be known on the applications to most of them. But then again, I may be underestimating
just how sinister we white people are.” – Sean
“Finally! Some admission that your numbers fall pathetically short when discussing this issue. – Brother
You said black people receive less per person. I said there is probably no way of knowing what race is applying for something. The only admission you got is that I worded two different (but in the same ballpark) points funny.
“It sounds like you already have all the statistics you need to see that we have a problem with racial disparity.”
Of course there is a problem. The numbers show it ^.^
Difficulties talking about that problem is the basis for the above Hardball clip. Black people genuinely don’t think white people have any grounds to offer solutions outside of “confessing” for things, and that most of their problems exist outside of means they can control. White people love to think every race problem is completely solved with a “do it yourself” attitude, or that the events of earlier decades cannot possible effect the today. Both sides are wrong.
As always, any assertion about what an entire group of people react/think isn’t meant to be 100% accurate. It can’t be. Just what I’ve come across.
I’m done replying to this post. I’ll still read your reply Brother, but I feel we’ve gone as far as we can with this particular subject.
Sean,
Talk about hypocrisy! In a minute you’ll be saying something out the other side of your face like where did I say that I look at numbers?. And where else did you underestimate the sinister nature of you and other white people or the fact that numbers don’t tell the whole story. You’re really thick in denial. And I apologize if I thought you might have been making any admission that numbers aren’t the answer. I should have known you would never deny statistics is the answer to studying anything.
Yep! But knowing your lack of objectivity you’ll claim I didn’t. Another one of those ad nauseum arguments from you.
You are so trivial minded it is unfunny. Doctor Dyson and Pat Buchanan didn’t come to the discussion totally ignorant of the others position. That knew the others position by looking at the others history. It’s not rocket science.
So if the numbers already show it why do you continue to insist on more numbers. And the last time I saw somebody do a cutesy face like that was when some teenager was instant messaging somebody about a video game. Or was it a preteen? Well one thing for sure, it wasn’t somebody trying to have a serious conversation about anything.
Peace
“Please quote for me, a single part of my posts that claim black people benefit more from a single program.” – Sean
I never said I didn’t look at or use numbers. You fabricated that out of thin air.
Serious conversation? Look at the four parts of my last post you quoted. You left out half of my Dr point, you skipped commenting on the paragraph actually looking to answer the original question, and you devoted a paragraph to me adding in a symbol. Every other sentence of multiple posts is you insulting me personally.
If the water turns off at my house, there can be MULTIPLE things going wrong that cause the lack of water. It doesn’t mean that ANYONE debates that there is a problem with the water being turned off.
I added in a symbol because I can’t show pity any other way.
Sean,
If anybody is fabricating anything it is you. You asked for a quote and I gave you five. Now you want to accuse me of fabricating something out of thin air. Now you say you didn’t want quotes but your entire comments. You are too much! And then you say, and this is another quote,
You’ll probably complain that I should’ve taken your entire comment again. Dude, if you want to read what you said just go back and read some of your comments. Don’t ask me for any quotes and then fuss because you get them. Too bad you can’t show pity the way you show your hypocrisy or your tolerance for racial disparity.
Peace
“Statistics can be used to measure if something is working or not, and if something is not working, then we have two options: one, change that something; or two, alter the statistics to make that something look like it is working.”
— quotation of me by Sean.
“That says nothing about statistics, and everything about how they’re used once you have them.”
— quotation of Sean.
Looks like someone does not like mathematics!
Okay.
To make it really simple and fun, let us suppose there is super intelligent life on, let us say, Mars and Venus. So, one day, two Martians come to Earth, and 100 or so Venetians decide to come too.
One Martian goes on public assistance of some sort. Ten or so Venetians do the same. There is some kind of public outcry over the Martians and Venetians are a burden on society. So, someone decides to do some NORMALIZED statistics.
Side note: Normalization
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53274.html
So what happens?
1 Martian / all Martians (2) on Earth = 50 percent
10 Venetians / all Venetians (100) on Earth = 10 percent
Popular Conclusion: All Martians are bad because 50 percent of them are on public assistance. All Venetians are good because only 10 percent are on public assistance. I admit that such a conclusion sounds convincing, but one can get blind-sided into ignoring the simpler numbers:
Realistic Conclusion:
One Martian versus 10 Venetians on public assistance: 10 / 1 = 10, and as a percentage: 10 * 100 (to get percentage) = 1000 percent. It is obvious that the Venetians represent a 1000 percent burden compared to the Martians. Now, the interpretation can look completely flipped around!
How is it possible to have good and bad completely flipped around one way or the other? Answer: Mathematical normalization.
Now, the common retort to all this is “I have my numbers, and you have your numbers, so I will choose what to ignore and what to accept!”
Okay, fine.
I choose the humane point of view and say that we must help all those who are in need, irrespective of color. Furthermore, the last time I checked, the IRS forms 1040 etc do not ask for the color of the taxpayer, and the tax schedules in such forms do not delineate by color status.
Thank you for listening.
The Engineer,
I love the analogy you used with Sean of the martians and venetians. It puts it in context. You can’t just look at numbers to explain disparity and racism.
Thanks for the reply.
Todd,
Where are your facts or proof that the MAJORITY of blacks aren’t willing to do what it takes to be successful? And what prey tell is doing what it takes for blacks? There are a majority of white people committing the same crimes as blacks but according to the justice department they aren’t facing the same sentences. Do you think that this may play a part in the skewed nature of our prison systems. Or do you still think that it is just a black thang?
Give me a break, I have heard your stupidity over and over. Let’s stop sugar coating this. It doesn’t change it just keeps moving right on down the line. One racist begats another. Maybe that is what they should have placed in the bible. Because it seems that you people don’t die you multiply. Go get an education. Because this is disgusting and your community needs to step up and be accountable for things that you have and continue to do. How about that!!! Do you think you would be willing to do that, or are you and yours completely blameless in anything that has happened with the black community? Of course you aren’t, as white people such as you, wouldn’t dare hold themselves accountable for anything which brought about this catastrophe known as the black community. Where is your personal responsibility? How come you never ask that question?
Thanks but no thanks to idiocy.