Color Is Not Culture

rs-21_03-7

i am a mixed man (black and white) I have to disagree witht the article about “not seeing color(whts wrong with being white)” and i’ll tell you why. Im light..almost white, and strangely my brother is as black as coal, i would like to state there is no great difference between us. Now for nmy main point. It is stupid to ramble on about there not being enough “black” products on the market because only 12% of the people in america are “black”. Therefore if you are a business, you are goin to make more money by selling toys, beauty products, and bandaids that look “white”. this has nothing to do with racism.


I guess I don’t know how people read these things into my blog posts. But, I don’t recall saying that there is anything WRONG with being white. What is wrong with being black that we have to settle for being represented by white things such as toys, band aids etc.? Shouldn’t I have the OPTION to use things geared towards myself?

That is where you are wrong; it has EVERYTHING to do with racism. I never said that companies had to focus their entire product lines to blacks. I said that they should at least make some, SOME of their toys other races to fit other needs. It isn’t as if I said they had to build new factories. All they have to do is add more color to the dye of the plastic and that ain’t much.

Now if we had the same attitude towards murder you wouldn’t be on board with it. Why not say that since murder only happens to less than 1% of the population we shouldn’t have to worry about it. Or not all women are murdered so let’s not complain. This is exactly why sickle cell disease isn’t getting the play of say skin cancer when it is just as dangerous. Yet, only blacks get it and they are ONLY 12% of the population so why worry about it, it won’t affect the majority. Wow, it’s funny how the percentages and the majority only come into play if the problem ONLY happens to blacks. That is what I call racism.

ALso to say that this causes black kids to think there is something wrong with them is also not a good arguement. Many white kids are bombarded with images in the media that portray them as “dumb” “no rhythm” “flighty” “unrealistic” “boring”..and alot of them believe this. so in those regards blacks are no more victims than whites. Also to talk about tv shows with “your culture” . lets analyze that. the steryotypical “black culture ” is composed of the following :down to earth, loud, expressive, full of life,truly human, got beat and rhythm,vocal, altogether just natural humans at their best. WEll these qualities are actually artributes of any lower class people, not just blacks.

OK, you have really overloaded the bullshit meter in my brain. It is unrealistic to think that a couple of images in the media portraying whites as dumb, no rhythm, flighty, unrealistic or boring are going to cause a bunch of problems when they are MORE than offset by the images of whites as the hero, smart, savior, epitome of beauty and any other good that can be shown.

The fact that blacks have been bombarded from day one on this soil with negativity about everything that encompasses their being is a bit more severe than just a couple of jokes. If all I were talking about is a few jokes about blacks being only being good at sports or being love making machines etc. that would be one thing. But, we aren’t just dealing with those stereotypes. We are dealing with an environment that tells us everyday that we are less than. And that is magnified most by trying to make us believe that we can derive all of representations of life from the personification of white people.

Ive seen rich blacks that act like stiffs and are so up in the clouds, and lower class whites with allof the listed charactaristics. these qualities can sometimes be seen in wealthy people. the reason why its commonly seen in blacks is because the majority of blacks are lower class, that is because of the true racism in the past that has made things that way. But i assure you there are just as many poor whites..its just, there are more whites period and the middle class and rich are composed mostly of whites.

Black people are the majority of “low class”? Really, and what exactly do you mean by that? Because the last time I checked there are low class people who have all the money they want. Take Paris Hilton for example. She is a low class skank with money. So, are you basically saying that people who are poor or have less than rich money are low class? How bourgeois of you!

THis country has legally banned racism, however this country is also founded on the sink or swim rule, so those who make it do, nerdy white kids have parents that can promote that so they move on to succeed, while black kids whose parents truly were affected arent as educated, and those who have black parents who dont show sings of affected lives, they give into peer pressure for the “black image”. Ill never forget in highschool when this black kid who lived in an all white hood and was rich was talking about cocain and drive by’s..haha. SO weve establiched that its a sink or swim, doggy dog world.

This country has legally banned murder, theft and rape, yet that hasn’t seemed to stop any of that. But, I should believe that just because we have banned racism it’s now in the past? If that is any part of what you are basing your argument on then not only do you lose but you are also blind to reality. And I agree with you that this is a sink or swim, dog eat dog world. The only problem is that when slavery ended blacks were thrown in the water without the life vests that white people had. And now that we finally worked our way up to a dingy they are sporting yachts.

Well humans will ban together with those who they feel are connected to them or can related to them, if we have people running around trying to point out all the”differences” (which are inconsistant) do you really think that the “different” people are goin to want you in their pack? Its humans no.1 instinct to survive in groups…if you make yourselfe out to be totally different, than whatever”pack” is succeedding will not accept you in because YOU wont let them. So it does make the problem worde when you try to separate yourself cuz youll get just what you want (be separated). If we let go of these illusions of some set difference in mentality between blacks and whites , than people will see eveybody as just that,people. untill that day racism will never end. if you want to help, write about what makes us connected, what makes people people, what we have in common, how color doesnt make a significant differance other than making the world visually beautiful. what i say makes sence. Of course people”see” the visual difference, but i think you know damn well what people mean when the say they “dont see color”.

So, I have to blend in with white people in order for them to accept me in their group? I can’t be me and be accepted in a group of humans because I am human too. That is the problem right now. You and many more just like you feel that in order to get along blacks need to assimilate to white culture and outlook in order to belong. That is ridiculous. There are significant differences between every culture in this world. And it has nothing to do with color and more to do with outlooks and culture. And to tell people that in order to be accepted they need to deny their culture is to say that their culture is less than and isn’t that what we are talking about here right now?

THey mean it doesnt matter to them. to say”oh so you cant tell this is red and this is blue” is just being a smart a–. I’d like to close by saying that I mean no ill..just keeping the convo fresh, thats what blogs are for right?

When a person of any race tells me they don’t see my color is pure bull. We all see differences in each other. How would you feel if I walked up to you and told you that I don’t see your sex? Would you be OK with people walking up to you and talking to you like they would a woman? That is what it boils down to. We are all different and should be accepted and celebrated for who and what we are. I don’t need white people to ignore my race in order to accept me. They should be able to look at me with my race and have no problem. Isn’t that what we should be working towards? Not this phony everyone is a blank colored white person.

And yes let’s always keep the conversation fresh. So don’t take my criticism of you to heart. I don’t dislike you, I don’t like what you say.

Advertisements

73 Comments

Filed under African American, Minorities, Propaganda, Racism, Subjugation, Tolerance

73 responses to “Color Is Not Culture

  1. lifeisannoying

    This so called mixed race man, does not know any decent black people, which is why he speaks like a troll!!

  2. cinque

    I have read as these “conversations” with Mommi1 and the gentleman above have played out and I find it amusing how people would rather be blind than face the truth. Society can show you an apple then call it an orange and people would slowly but surely believe it!!!! I can not understand how the masses of this country will turn their blind eyes againts the people who have been and still are abused. I have said it here before, I don’t see this problem ever going away. With people like this, unwilling to see and call out the problem, my children will be sitting at work as I am blogging about this issue 30years from now.

  3. Cinque,

    I agree and that was exactly the point I was trying to make to them. As long as we continue to pretend that everything is A-OK we will continue to deal with this problem way into the future. I just find it interesting that this mommyof1 talks about everyone being color blind and loving then in the same breath talks about how black people such as me are just crying about nothing. I am just glad that I am not the only one who sees right through these folks bull.

    Thanks for the reply.

  4. c

    i don’t believe it’s a blind eye being turned by the dominant culture- more like a contented eye. Why would someone in that position want to give up their privilege? Perceived and protected dominance in every aspect of life? That comfort? i think they don’t look rather than can’t see.

    As for the gentleman you referenced, and many of that mindset, i believe the case may be the same. Perhaps he is getting by, fitting in, and figures if he can do it we can too.

    The frustrating thing about that is, and you’ve pointed it out again and again, (and honestly, i don’t think anyone can break it down to any simpler terms than you have- many times- or in another way) is that no one should have to negate themselves or their experiences to live fully. i swear to God it drives me mad! this idea.

    Good points made, as is your way.

  5. C,

    You are so right! It isn’t about turning a blind eye it is about just being content with the status quo. I feel like a broken record trying to tell people that we ALL deserve to participate fully regardless if we fit the mold or not. In fact I think that people should be encouraged to have their own culture and bring it to the table. I know that I am completely bored with cookie cutter people. If everyone is the same it is quite boring.

    Thanks for the reply.

  6. Flaco

    The idiot who sent you this needs spell check.

    He makes a point to say that only 12% of the American population is black and therefore a business would make more money by selling toys, beauty products, and band aids that look white. He fails to mention the other percentage of people who are dark-skinned. I’m not sure of the exact percentage, but I am certain that if it is added to the 12% it would be high enough to make a profit making products that acknowledge America’s diversity. Furthermore, I use an after shave product that is directly marketed to black men. I have been using it for years. I can find it, along with other products of its kind, in any store. They must be making a profit. His point is completely invalid.

    He prefaces his whole argument with the fact that he is half black. That was unnecessary. It’s clear which half of himself he finds comfort in. People like him raise my blood pressure.

  7. Flaco,

    You and me both get our blood boiling on folks like this. I think his whole premise on making it known that he was ONLY half black was to let us all know that he supposedly understands both sides. When it is painfully clear that he views life from one side of his heritage(s). He has no intention of living his life other than what it takes to assimilate into the majority in this country. And that is his god given right. But, then don’t come and try and tell black people what they should be content living with. And I damn sure am NOT going to be content with some fool trying to tell me that since others who look like me are so much in the minority that we can be overlooked and made to pick over things targeted to some other race. Like hell I will! I will continue to complain until I am represented. And that my friend needs to understand is the right of every single individual in this country and else where.

    Thanks for the reply.

  8. Gabriel

    Low class is a financial term for people who make less than 60 thousand a year. And how shallow of you to think that if you are born black your automatically different in a way that you have your own group. to say that you are represented by white things is saying that you se them as “the other people. what about the poor white people? do they have a “life jacket”… to say that I veiw life from my “white side” is terrible. Because i was raised living the steryotyipical black life style. Gender is totally different than Color so that is a terrible analogycomment on that african dude and . you said that you understand both black .american culture and african culture..now you are denying me the right to say that I understand both? ANd in more comfortable with my white side? There you have it . you are separating whites and blacks into sides. That is racist. WE might as well have separate bathrooms right? ANd if you could read correctly I said that we need to stop being “White” or “Black” and just start being people. The bit about you “blending into whiteness” is not what I said. I said that the whole idea of them being “the others” has to stop. Your all a bunch of bigots if you separate whites and blacks like that. THe other side of me? Represented by whiteness? Blend into white people? No better than the cracker’s who shoved blacks into separate neighborhoods in the early 1900’s. It is a sink or swim world. If you want your own little separate group instead of the whites and blacks teaming up as one, then there will be war between whites and blacks. And yes we need to blen into eachother whites and blacks both need to make that effort. We need to be proud of being americans and people of the earth. Color is not culture because blacks from the suburbs act like white kids, and dont give a shit about black heritage, and whites from the ghetto act black. Environment and upbringing are the sources of culture, not color. And just because I refuse to kiss white or black peoples ass doesnt mena that I don’t understand their side, in that case i should say you dont undertand the “african side” of your culture like that african dude said

  9. Gabriel

    As a matter of fact I know many decent black people. Now all of the sudden you know everything about me. SHows how you alls mind works. You see one characteristic of a person, then make a bunch of assumptions. Racist people . I guess because im half white I cant be in your little group? Im the outsider because I say to stop separating people on color. Thats how it works? fine keep your society of all black and let the white people keep their society of all white. I bet most of you have never even dealt with true racism. And your going to cry about friggin banaids? The majority of black people dont even care what color the damn bandaid is because it dont matter. And for your information, the bandais arnt white, the are a deep tan, that way they are a happy medium for all colors living in america, did you forget the hispanics?

  10. Gabriel

    and i live in a black neighborhood so im not “assimilating” into the majority se there you go again pretending to know everything about me. Making assumptions.

  11. Gabriel,

    I am not assuming anything about you. You said and I quote “if you make yourselfe out to be totally different, than whatever”pack” is succeedding will not accept you in because YOU wont let them.” Does this not imply that you make yourself out to be just like whatever “pack” is “succeeding”? And I don’t care what neighborhood you live in, what does that mean? There are plenty of people who live in black neighborhoods who don’t identify with the black people in that neighborhood. Or better yet, there are black people who live in black neighborhoods where all the blacks around them have the same “fit in” mentality. So what is your point?

    You ARE assimilating! The majority of black people are assimilating. It is the song of the country. Everything we are told, shown, taught says that we need to assimilate. And listening to your reply it is pretty obvious that you are assimilating so calm down.

    Thanks

  12. Gabriel,

    This is getting boring. I guess you should make it clear who you are speaking to since I never said that you didn’t know any decent black people. And no I don’t know everything about you and don’t really want nor care to know. And unfortunately with the way things go, just talking about racism makes me the racist in the eyes of people like you. What makes you think that I myself are not bi or multi-racial? Now who is making assumptions?

    I don’t separate anyone. I welcome all people in my “little group.” In fact about half of the people who are regular readers are white, I guess you don’t know everything about me either! And the reason why most black people don’t care what color the damn bandaid is would be because we are taught to understand that things are made for white people and we are just lucky to be able to participate. That my friend is the programming that we all live with. Some of us are NOT content to just accept white oriented goods as their representation. Some of us would like to be represented on our own merit. But, hey that’s just SOME of us. And again I guess you don’t look at packaging because bandaids (not your knockoff brand) are not a deep tan, they are a creamy peach color. And they are called flesh tone. Just like pantyhose which are called nude, tan and then you get to coffee. Now I am not dark like coffee and too dark for nude or tan, so where do I fit in? Not to mention nude for who, why don’t you answer that? And if that is not racist then tell me what it is? Where are the nude for blacks, Hispanics or Native Americans and don’t forget the Indians as some of them can get pretty dark.

    Do you tell Asians, Jews, Gays and others that they don’t make up enough of the majority to have things that encompass them? Or is that reserved for blacks? Would you tell other men that since women are the majority they should be comfortable wearing womens clothing or perfume? Wouldn’t you or most men say hell no? But of course we wouldn’t do that now would we?

    Thanks

  13. Gabriel,

    I am going out on a limb here and say that you don’t understand what was being said. I said that you mentioned you were biracial as a way of explaining that you understand or can understand both views. Now if you took that as some kind of insult then so be it. Also, low class is more commonly used as an insult. Now to make a statement about social economic status then using poor, rich and middle class are better definers of financial terms.

    Can you be any thicker in the brain? Do you feel represented by women clothes, shoes and toiletries? Of course you don’t, so now do you see us women as the “others”? See it doesn’t make any sense. If your statement is true then why not make black things as white people should feel represented by them too, right? And since they don’t, white oriented things are created.

    I don’t view white as terrible seeing as I have a lot of white relatives and am descended from white’s as well as blacks and Native American’s. So don’t go there. And gender is NOT a bad analogy since it is perfect because women and men are equal yet different correct? Black people and white people are equal yet different, correct? I don’t know about you but, I see life from a different view than white people who are still allowed to access white privilege.

    It is not racist to separate people by the groups they come from. Or is it racist when the government does statistics showing white crime/black crime? So don’t begin to lay down the bullshit dude. If we are NOT going to separate black from white then why do we bother making bandaids or pantyhose nude yet they are geared towards white skin? Why not make every color of everything, then we are all being seen and respected?

    You keep claiming we need to stop seeing color. What they hell is wrong with seeing color? What is it with you and this other crap? If anything I am being made an other when I can’t go to the store and see things that represents me and who I am and my race. When I see all the toys for my child and they have white faces and blond hair is my son an other? He doesn’t look anything like those faces. You need to get your head on straight.

    You are so stupid you don’t see that red lining and districting IS shoving blacks and whites into separate neighborhoods. Give me a break. Have you taken a good long look at the schools with black populations and the ones with white populations? Where the hell are you that you don’t see the stark disparity between races that is drowning some people? You are too blind for your own good.

    And no one wants you to kiss anyone’s ass and if that is what you think then too bad for you.

    Thanks but no more please.

  14. Pingback: DIY Projects » Blog Archive » Color is Not Culture « the Black Sentinel

  15. gabriel

    black sentinel, I was talking to ther other commentors. I never said that your a rascist. Im just saying that I in fact do understand both sides. let me put it to you this way. you cannot group all people with black skin into the “black” group and same goes for the white people. Ill tell you why I think so. Its because everybody comes from different upbringings. What about the black kid who is adopted and raised by white folks? He certainly does not belong to the black group. What about the white boy who grows up in a black neighborhood. He belongs to the “black group” more than he does the white group. why? because they were raised in that culture and have the right to claim it. Much like you have the right to claim true african culture because you were raised with it. So if somebody who is white can claim black culture because that was his upbringing, then isnt it true that it is upbringing rather than color that dictates a persons culture? also white kids and black kids grow up with eachother as best friends. SO the white kids grow up with a bit of black culture, and black kids grow up with a little white culture. SO im just saying that you can’t group people based on color because alot of black kids and white kids grew up in an identicle culture..so their culture is their group, not their color. My mom “acts black” because her family was from a black neighborhood. So to me to that makes her part of the black community. annd another thing is that blacks to push whites away “i dont like white people” or I aint hanging with a cracker” and when white try to assimilateinto our culture they are called wannabes or wiggers..now im asking you respectfully. please review ALL points of my comment and explain it to me. dont you agree with me?

  16. gabriel

    im just asking you instead of focusing on the stupid little things that i write, focus on what im trying to say as a whole. One point is that there is no definition of white or black culture. like in my lastt comment i said many whites and blacks are raised in the exact same culture. so what group do they belong to. Among The common peopl( hence the reference to “lower class”) there is no longer a big separation like there was in the 50″‘s 60’s 0r even 70’s. Alls it takes it one generation to change everuthing based on how its raised. I lived in “the hood” and we had this white family down the street who often came over. If they were talking with my parents and you were blind folded you couldent tell who was white and who was black..what culture, then, do they belong to, the parents were raised in that black neighborhhod since birth. so alls im sayin is that color is not a sufficient grouping method, I believe income class, and upringing are regardeless of color. what about mixed people, they(including me), what group do they belong to , I think its what ever they were brought up to belong to. Dont you agree with any of my statements and if there is one that you dont than why?

  17. gabriel

    so lets be cool ok?

  18. Gabriel,

    I personally don’t agree with terms such as “wigger” or “oreo”. That is silly. I agree that people are raised with different upbringings. White’s in a black culture and vice versa. What I am talking about is the big picture not the exceptions. Also, I don’t see anything wrong with having friends or dating or whatever outside of ones race. I don’t believe that racism should be a part of our lives, but it is. And that is what I am talking about. I believe that each and every person in this country has the right to be represented. And if a company can’t represent all of the people who are buying their products then either folks should stop buying their products or they need to be made to understand that they should do the right thing. And I mean that for companies who make universal products. I shouldn’t have only one choice when buying things for me and my family.

    I get what you are saying and that is not what I am trying to impart on people with my posts. I am talking about companies and people being ALL INCLUSIVE. And that is my goal not that people need to be separate. We need to see that everyone has equal access to everything that others have without thinking about it. If they are making little ride on toys (which I did a post about) that have blue eyes and blond hair, then why not make a toy with brown hair and skin. Is that too much to ask? I don’t think so since there are companies who do. So believe me I am not trying to push anyone away nor am I trying to be racist. That is totally opposite of what I am trying to do.

    Thanks.

  19. Gabriel,

    Unfortunately, I think you are contradicting yourself when you say that white’s who portray black culture are called “wiggers”. If this is the case then there is a discernible difference between white and black culture. And to be honest I think that we are being side tracked by the “culture” issue, which is not my point at all. My point is that some of us in this country are not being represented when it comes to goods and services. And I don’t care if I do or don’t have the same culture as white people, when I go and buy things I do NOT feel represented by products aimed at white people.

    Now if you are, then more power to you. But, I feel personally that as blacks we learn to see our race as less than by the constant bombardment of media showing them white faces for everything. How can a black kid continue to see themselves as important if all the toys they have to play with are of some other race? It says that this kid is not as important as white kids or they would be represented by the things they play with, read or watch on television.

    Thanks

  20. Gabriel

    Yes i understand that . but thats not what im saying. im sayin that dont you agree that you cant culturally group people by color because some blacks and whites share an identicle culture? and about the wigger thing. whites who may share the same culture as blacks( due to location and upbring) and that have more in common with black people than the steryotypical white, are often rejected by those who dont personally know them. And some kids who were brought up in the steryotypical “white culture” like goin deer hunting and speaking like a geek, and use your inside voice, try to assimilate into the other culture that are called wiggers and wanna bes. Yet white people dont seem to do that when blacks act in a manner that we call white. SO the main point of my original comment is that COLOR is NOT culture due to the fact that many whites( who arent pretending) share and i denticle culture with blacks people, and hat children have friends who are different colors and pick up on some of their culture ( being rasied around it b/c of the presence of their friends) . Do you see my satatement now? I am sory about the bit on the store products but that wasnt the main point at all. the main point is that we can no longer group people into black and white culture becuase there are too many gray areas..you see what I mean?

  21. Gabriel

    if you truly understand me..not agree with me but simply understand what im trying to say then i will love you forever. Im not racist against black people as some of your other commentors will suggest, I call a black man daddy for crying out loud how could I be uncomforatable with black people?

  22. Gabriel

    You know there are these books and they take everyday fairy tales and use black illustrations. im sure you have them for your kids but if you dont then you should get them. So let me see if im understanding. You mean that the fact that everything is for white skin or people with white skin, causes people to think racially because black people think “hey i must be really different from those guys” or “hey if i have black skin than im out of the norm.” and this affects them regerdeless if the were raised in a highly african influenced culture or a highly european culture or even a big mix of the two?. Cuz look at white kids, they actually have alot of “our culture” with the rap and RnB and the dress you know.so is that what your trying to say?

  23. Gabriel

    some humbles suggestions for anybody reading this: In walmart there is now an aisle strictly for black hair and skin care. also you can get these invisible bandaids with clear sticky parts and the gause comes in several colors think.

  24. Gabriel

    note, when i said it was stupid to ramble on about lack of black things, i meant it is futile because the m,arkett only cares about bussiness and could care less about how it affects people. this is what i hate about electronic communication. you cant articulate as well and people misread you. I would ask you to clear that up for me but i realize that i just need to learn how to speak my mind more clearly. Though I didnt expect there to be an article dedicated to things that i wasnt even try to say, im sorry if you mis understood it.

  25. Gabriel,

    I do understand you. Now about white people having rap and R&B etc. They have a lot of other influences than rap in their lives. Also, rap is NOT our culture at least not the rap that these kids white/black are listening to right now. The fact is that the rap that is being pushed right now is being fueled by white dollars, so it is in fact a culture built to satisfy white needs. They wish to see blacks as stereotypical rappers and that is what they pay for. They may listen to rap but what of our actual culture do they participate in?

    What I am saying is look at cartoons, television, movies and products. These things are overwhelmingly represented by white people. I think that you should look at the scientific studies showing the affects of our media on the psyche of black children. The experiment showing that black kids would rather pick a white doll than a black doll illustrates what I am talking about.

    These kids are picking these dolls because this is what we are taught through the media etc. as being the standard of beauty. You don’t see blacks being represented as the standard of beauty and please don’t say Beyonce or whoever because if you notice they have lightened skin and blond wigs so as to put forth that European standard of beauty. So our children are bombarded with images of white this or that and you don’t think that this has any affect on them?

    Thanks

  26. Gabriel,

    I can never agree with that! You know Jim Crow satisfied a market also. Yet, blacks like MLK Jr. decided that it wasn’t futile to argue to have civil rights. It will never be futile to ask for equality and I don’t care what it has to do with. When we see futility in things being equal then we will always be affected by disparity which I believe is the problem now. People are too hung up on the free market dictating who gets equality. Also, when people stop buying their products do to the fact that they refuse to represent them then they will feel it (in their pocket books). That usually gets action. And maybe that is why there are so many products for black hair care now. They realized there is money in the black community.

    Hey, we can’t always be understood perfectly with electronic media. So much is left unsaid through body language and non verbal communication. So we can only take what we read at face value and that is not always best. But, we really have no other choice sometimes.

    Thanks.

  27. Joe

    Oh i know rap is crap i just couldnt think of another example..I was simply stating that there are alot of us with the same culture regardless of color. As for the cartoon thing, now that i know what you mean I totally agree with you and offer my sincere appologies. My original comment was maily pointing out that people can not completely be culturly grouped as black or white. You know the interesting thing is that “black” isnt really a race. Like european isnt a race. People ignore the vast amount of races with black skin. Jamicans are different than ethipians but peoples prejudices minds shove them into a group “black” and that was also part of my point. Well I certainly got myself worked up over a stupid misunderstanding. Well again im sorry and i appreciate you lidtening till the end untill you understood what I meant. There are sooo many areas in the united state that are heavily influence by afro-culture and lots of whites live in them and that is all im trying to say. I admitt that it sounded bad to point out that ii was mixed but i just wanted people to know that because of that i cannot rationally have a hate for either race. Ok im going now.bye

  28. Joe

    Damn it..to avoid confusion Joe is my roomate..im in collage..this and the last comment was me…gabriel. Joe is a real cool guy by the way he likes your articles but he is not as impulsive as me..we talked about your articles actually and on question that we both have is how do you get your blog to be so easy to find on the search eingine? we want to start one! But yeah anyway we share his computer and i forgot to put my name in and since he left you a comment his name was already in so dont be confused, thank you!

  29. gabriel

    ok im back as myself.haha. bye. you know I like how youre not scared to be agressive keep it up. Joe was scared to leave a comment on your page because he thought you’d burn him up. ok bye now

  30. Gabriel

    Oh one more thing to clear up..I know that THE MAN seprerated us into “white” and “black” groups. Im saying us common people are a whole different group from THE MAN ( everyone in charge) And as common people WE shouldnt separate the people. It starts with the people. If the peoples will is strong enough, like you said, we can overcome the corrup leaders and marketts.

  31. Pingback: What’s Popular? » Blog Archive » Color is Not Culture « the Black Sentinel

  32. Joe, Gabriel,

    That cleared up a lot of confusion for me. Also, you are allowed to put in tags and then google indexes them for search terms. It works out very well.

    Thanks and good luck on your blog. It can be hard work but well worth it.

  33. As always, great comments. Each of your points were perfect. I couldn’t add something if I wanted to (and you know I usually have something to say!).

    Keep up the great stuff!

    Godfather

  34. The Engineer

    Oh, youth! It is so wonderful to be young.

    I think the following is applicable to the discussion at hand:

    “Blacks Display Stockholm Syndrome”
    https://theblacksentinel.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/blacks-display-stockholm-syndrome/
    Some excerpts:
    “…
    Our ancestors had no choice but to use this defense mechanism just to survive in that hostile environment. And of course this was passed down from generation to generation in order to ensure that their descendants would survive as well. You can look back and see the almost childlike behavior our ancestors had to use with white people. These behaviors can be seen in the downcast eyes, shuffling feet as if kicking the dirt, conducting themselves in a manner as a child who has done something to anger their parent. And now instead of giving the overkill body language version you just have those who will at any cost show allegiance to those in control by helping to subjugate those who are being controlled. Seeing the victimizer as the victim of those they are victimizing.
    …”

    Thank you for listening.

  35. Joe

    Ok DOnt get this confused with assimilating because in my view we have already assimilated into eachother. You know, we have mixed, America the melting pot. I don’t believe that one can assimilate into “white culture” because there is no such thing as you pointed out color and culture are two different things. So this next thing is not about assimilating because in my opinion the only type of assimiliation is people trying to follow after high society and the hollywood/music industry/ whatever is cool during their generation. So please read my next comment knowing that assimilation is non existent in my next point. I will be asking for help.

  36. Joe

    Ok I feel rude but I figured if anyone could help me out it is you!LOL. In debate class the old black/white argument was presented. My argument is being oppossed by a brown skinned woman. I argued that even though most blacks and whites share a similair/identicle life style that the systems in this nation continues to throw all INDIVIDUALS with brown skin into “the black ones” pile. I argued that if I meet a brown skinned, even though im quite capable of seeing color, and that it is obvious that his/her skin is darker than my own, that his/her name and personality compose his/her IDENTITY, and that though different skin tones color our world and provide more options(attraction,sex, etc) and visual stimulation that it is wrong to identify that person as being in some sort of separate group or culture base of his skin thinking “all negros are alike”. How prejudiced minded is that right? I said that to truly know his culture, group, personality, one would have to meet him. So I borrowed your argument that color is not culture. She replied ” if somebody is from france isn’t that part of their identity?”. I said “to be french one must be raised french. Being black does not indicate a certain upriniging and to think otherwise is racist. Besides, there are black and white people in france and both are equally ‘french’. So again color and culture are two different things, and that argument is irrelavent.”. Then I moved on to argue that using phrases like ” We black people” or “we white folks” is like saying that every black person has soooooo much in common with other brown skinned people that they are almost all the same. I hear a redneck here saying ” All them niggers are the same” That is racist toward black people and because of the system it is coming out of black peoples mouths. “How is the system to blame for that?” ,she asked, ” We just have a natural tendency to group together.” So I gave her an example of exactly how the system is to blame. I pointed out that elementary through highschool when a poet/inventor/scientist/musician of the past is presented, they focus more on the fact that he was black then they do on his god given talents and personality: “he was a BLACK poet in the 19th centurey”. Often the whole lesson is centered on the historic figure being black rather than his true contributions or talents. I explained that in doing this the system is shoving these figures into “one of the black ones” box as if they are not equal to the white poets or that their skin color is soo weird that its more important than the figures true identity. This is done with even todays idols and famouse figures. They dont do this with white historic figures/ idols. They are known by thier name, not “you know that one black poet”. Them being black is the most important thing about them. This teaches our children that it is not their personality that defines them, but their color! We are telling black children that their skin color is what matters and that their individual personality and talents are so irrelavent that their main identity is their skin!!! CRAZY SHIT HUH???? I said this is why so many young blacks have the “we blacks” syndrome, wherein they often use phrases such as: “Man black people dont do that shit!!” or “Man that shit is for white people! Real niggas dont do that! hahahaha!” SO then is all the exciting cool unique adventerous stuff for the white people? Maybey a young black man longs to be white skinned so he could do the things he likes without worrying about peer pressure.. So not only is it teaching them that they are all the same. AKA: “ALl negroes look alike” attitude. But it makes them afraid to be themselves Because, hell, ifif their skin color is the only pitiful form of identity they can hope for, why would they give it up. They would have no identity! By stepping out and being deemed “not a real nigga” by their friends, they face loosing the only pitiful form of identity given them. AND ITS THE SYSTEMS FAULT!! THen the TV program issue flared up. I say, because we are all american and we are morre alike then different in culture and lifestyle, we should not have programs with all white characters or all black charaters because this promotes separation base on false, or shallow differences. Why not have an equal amount of all common races on our TV shows? I certainly don’t want our black children or oriental children to think that they are weird because nobody on tv looks like them. On the other hand I dont want to promote separation with no rational basis. She said that we need to keep them separate but just have more black tv shows because our fake ass groups need something to call our own? And all of this because I have less melanin in my skin cells and you have more? not my way of viewing the world. SO tommorow we are goin to repeat this debate but he said we have to improve our arguments. she is in the lead so far and I think its because the teacher (white skinned) agrees with her status quo friendly arguements. I am in front of all these students and hopefully my argument reaches one and changes one point of veiw to the good side. This is more than an assignment to me. This is me challenging the status quo like you said we should. but apparently I need your help .WHat can a throw at her. WHy is she in the lead? Should i take a stand, set an example, and call her and the teacher racists in front of everybody? what do I do?

    SIncerely, JOE

  37. Johann

    In nobodies defense, i would like to point out that “Would you be OK with people walking up to you and talking to you like they would a woman?” is a bad analogy. because why would you talk to/treat a person with light skin differently than you would a person with brown skin ? where as its perfectly normal to talk to a woman diff than a man i just dont se how these two scenarios match up. Im sorry if i sound smartass but its just c’mon, even if your hood is segregated its not THAT big of a diff. 🙂 we are who we choose to be. Color speaks for nothing, even though we can see it quite well. love yall 🙂

  38. Joe,

    The only reason she is in the lead is because the status quo is exactly what everyone wants to hear about. Now the only problem with your argument is that you are not allowing for the natural differences that DO exist between any group of people. Yes, blacks and whites share a common bond being that we are all born and raised in America. But the differences come in that our outlooks of America differ due to systemic and individual racism.

    You should probably confront her directly and ask what is the reason why blacks should not be included in the mainstream? Or ask why they have to have separate? We already tried that and it ended up being unequal. So has the black shows, since they are not made for blacks by blacks. I am sorry we may be raised in the same area but we still have small differences that make us unique. Jews and Christians are raised side by side in America and no one expects them to be identical and the same goes for the races. Some things that white people and black people do in their families are completely different. That is just the facts.

    But if you wish to win the debate then you need to directly challenge the notion of separate but equal! How is it going to be equal, who is in charge of making it equal and who has control over that equality? You can’t have equality if the dominant group is setting the equality parameters for everyone. You need a bit of adjustment in your argument. I don’t think that I wholeheartedly agree with either of you. In fact your arguments need to come together somehow and be tweaked. It would work better.

    Don’t necessarily call them racists as I don’t think that will help the situation as you don’t really have any definitive proof of that, unless they begin to stereotype and group by negativity.

    Thanks.

  39. Johann,

    Where did I say that I would like a person to TREAT a darker skinned person differently? I said that to say to a person that you don’t SEE color is akin to saying you don’t see their sexual orientation or that you don’t notice that they are a little person. This doesn’t mean you need to TREAT a person differently, it means that you need to respect their difference and their person.

    And regardless if we are or aren’t segregated there are differences in ALL groups of people. Unless you are going to have me believe that a Jewish boy raised next door to a white Christian and a black Pentecost are going to have the exact same upbringing. I think that each one will have a difference in outlook and difference in backgrounds, the way they were raised etc. No two races of people has the same experiences in life in order to say that there are NO differences between them. Sorry.

    Thanks.

  40. Johann

    but im saying that a black boy and white boy COULD have the same upbring. So often is the case down here. and that race isnt the big diff because if two brown boys are brought up differently then they can’t be in a “group”. im just saying that it isnt consistent enough..you know? im not realy good at this. you know i mean that because everybody had a diff upbringing than everybody is diff and just because two boys are black doesnt mean that they have anything in commom. one may share a similair upbringing to a hispanic and assosciate with him.

  41. Johann

    also on your comment to joe..it was nice. but i have lived with black families before, and they dont seem to do anything significantly different in the family..im sorry i dont wanna make you mad..so dont be..:).. im just saying that some black and white families raise their kids almost the same way. not all black people raise their family with different ways. and just because a white family may raise their kids this way doesnt make them black because you need black skin to be black. 🙂

  42. Johann

    im just saying that their is uniquness in individuals and that there is not automatically a shared unique trait or way of life among all black people or any other raise. our culture down here is a mixed culture. the black people here have waaayy more in common with me than they do with black people in idaho or california. they are in MY group because they share MY CULTURAL UPBRINGING. well i gtgo for now eat good food everyone! 😀

  43. Johann,

    You analysis is flawed. Why do people congregate in places like China town, Korea towns or Jewish areas? Why is that if they don’t have anything more in common than they do with blacks, whites or whatever? You can’t answer that without coming to the conclusion that they DO have more in common.

    Thanks

  44. Johann,

    I am not mad just tired. If everyone were the same then we would never have these conversations about race because they wouldn’t exist. We would all have the same background when it comes to race. We wouldn’t be dealing with racial issues if we all had the exact same backgrounds. When you lived with the black family did you expect that they stood on their heads for an hour before bed? That isn’t the kind of difference I am talking about. It is silly to continue to act as if the only differences between people are blatant.

    I mean if you have ever seen video from other countries, we ALL raise our children the same. That isn’t the issue. Not every individual in any race identifies with the same cultural background. But they do have enough similarities that it groups them together. If everyone is the same, I wish you would kindly tell me how China town and the rest exist and for what reason?

    Thanks

  45. Mr. Johnson,

    What a tool! Why bother, it didn’t hurt my feelings. All that did was solidify my belief in the fact that you and people like you are seriously ignorant. And it is obvious that you are extremely envious of a certain attribute you think the black race has. I hope you get over your obvious fetish and move along.

    Thanks but no thanks loser!

  46. cubans come in both black and light tan, but both identify as cubans. Why is it impossible that new orleaneans do the same. read about it. we do have a strong distinct culture of our own. I stayed a summer in kentucky and i hated it because they had different traditions, thought differently, ate, talked walked and had a different vibe. how can you possibly group me and these people together .WHat similarities has skin color provided like you said it does, that we can be grouped together. I my self posses a culture heavily influenced by african culture, just like you. the black people here are part of my ethnicity because we have the same traditions, food, mannerisms, way of talking, and we all have a similair vibe to us, and we truly get eachother, you know what i mean when i say that right? You probably do not even “get, or understand” half f these traditions, cultural mannerisms, and vibes. Im not being mean its just true. Yesterday i opened the door for a brown crippled guy and we just started talking and wound up talking for about an hour ( just the way we are here). He , during the hurricane, had lived with a black family from north carolina. HE said that he felt out of place because they just didnt get him. He said in so many words that they were altogether a different race of people and alothough he appreciated their help that he couldent help but wonder over how different they were in north carolina. He said that people with brown skin and people with white skin actaully lived in diff neighborhoods. ( i thought that was weird and really terrible actually, how bored those people must be). So im just saying that color does not provide these similarities that you speak of, that are sufficient enough to form a group. how can you say that that man, herb i believe it was, belongs to the N.C. families group, not mine. He and me in practice are the same ethnic group regrdeless of skin color. I certainly am not in the same ethnic group as those white people in kentucky (hell no). So “ethnic group” to me has nothing to do with color, but with your traditions and cultural roots. I would go as far to say that you and i have almost the same amount of african influence on our cultures. we must also keep in mind that colors are NOT RACES. look at the jamaicans and angolans, both are similair in color, but are separate ethnic groups. ya lnow?

  47. But anyway black sentinel, my final question is, what are the similarities that group herb with the family in N.C. or me with the folks in kentucky?

  48. and remember when talkin to gabriel you asaid that its ok to separate people into the groups that they COME FROM. you said come from not the group they look like. 🙂

  49. One more thing. I believe that China town exists because the are still almost pure in thier chinese culture, and the surrounding people have no part in chinese culture, but when you have what i call a compound culture ,mix of cultures that become so blended they are now one, and everybody in an area shares it, isnt that the exact same thing as china town. people with one culture that group together because of it? Why were yall talking about bandaids. Ive worn blue and orange bandaids and they certainly dont match my color :P. they all stop the bleeding. But i see where you could definately say that the “flesh” colored bandaids are what i call colorist. 😛

  50. Johann,

    It is obvious that you don’t know much about Cubans. As they do identify themselves as black or white. Not ONLY Cuban. Not to mention their was just as much racism in Cuba, Jamaica, Dominican Republic and Rio as there IS in America. I am NOT grouping you with anyone. I am simply saying that the MAJORITY of any race has a common thread that is more than color.

    You speak of isolated cases. Please explain the phenomena that we see with China town, Korea town, the black community or the Jewish district? If you can successfully explain why these seemingly unconnected people who just happen to share the same race (even though they according to you share more in common with white people) choose to live amongst each other, I will gladly agree wholeheartedly with your argument.

    But the problem is that those people congregate together because they have MORE in common than just race. And the fact is they have more in common than with white people. Why does the white race tend to end up in white neighborhoods? Again answer the question about white flight? If white people have so much in common with ALL races then why do they move to “whiter” neighborhoods when “others” move into areas they feel are for them? White flight is real, look it up if you don’t believe me.

    But since I know you won’t answer this I will. They live together because they feel a connection due to the FACT that these people who share their race more than likely also share a common background, upbringing, culture and history. It isn’t racist to understand that. I don’t fault white people for wanting to be with white people, that is natural. I fault people for seeing others as less than themselves, no matter what their race.

    Thanks.

  51. Johann,

    Not true my friend. A majority of the people in China town if you know any have never even been to China. But yet they still frequent and live around each other.

    Thanks.

  52. Johann,

    Nothing happens in a vacuum. That is what you need to remember. Of course some people will identify themselves with other groups. That is to be expected and nobody is trying to force them otherwise. Simple answer I could care less.

    Thanks.

  53. Johann,

    Who the hell is Herb and why do I care whether or not he is connected to the family in N.C.? It is not for me to say anyway. Like I said there is infinite diversity. I never said that you ONLY get to be the same as those with the same color. Think outside the box for a while.

    Thanks

  54. johann

    WOW. why are you yelling at me ? i didnt say nuthin against you? ANd the whole city of new orleans isnt an isolated case. its a huge city that is mixed. No “white” or “black” neighborhoods i can think of. In china town the may have not been to china but i didnt say that i said they retain pure chinese culture, where as my are doenst retain a pure culture but mixes them. ” their race more than likely also share a common background, upbringing, culture and history.” you didnt understand a thread of what I said. You speak of one race neighborhoods, i have never lived in one. SO they, in this neighborhoods have a culture and uppringing,background, and history that is the same. They share nex orleans rich history and culture, and they have the same traditions, and their families have been here for gebereations so they have the same upbringing. This aint an isolated case. this black man herb, and I will be grouped in our own ethnic group before you and he will be grouped together because he culturaly and ethnically, and historically is more similair to me than he is to you and i was saying that this goes for the majority of new orleans people. SO color is not a consistent means of ethnically grouping mass amounts of people

  55. johann

    most people i know dont have the desire to be around mostly people with their skin color. they just want to be around other people, period. If that is your world, where people are mostly being around their own colors, and if in your city/state/country different colors means diffferent culture and upbringing and background, then cool. but i have never seen it.

  56. Johann,

    Slow down. For one I am not yelling at you. And for the next I didn’t say the N.O. was an isolated case. I am talking about the situations you keep bringing me such as the black person you met who conveniently was nothing like the blacks he stayed with. Is that to say that more blacks have more in common with whites than blacks? NOPE! It is saying that this particular black man didn’t have much in common with this black group. I don’t have a lot in common superficially with some blacks who live right next door, does that mean I don’t have anything in common with the larger of the black community? Of course not.

    That is where the idea of nothing happens in a vacuum. I am saying that there is infinite diversity and of course you are going to find cases that don’t fit. You will find Chinese people who feel more at ease in a room full of white people than a room full of Chinese. Does that mean that all Chinese have more in common with whites then Chinese? Of course not.

    I think I am pretty much done with this topic, as I have tried to put it every way possible. So I can no longer see any point in continuing further. I know that my significant fella thinks that I let thing go on way too long and asks why. I don’t know I guess I just think that people need room and time to explain themselves. But I think we have come to the end of our explanations and we are at an impasse.

    But thanks for the replies on this matter.

  57. Johann,

    A lot of the people you know don’t desire to be around mostly those with their skin color. That could very well be true. But that doesn’t make it the norm.

    Thanks.

  58. The Engineer

    To The Black Sentinel,

    You are right; you are at an impasse, and it seemed as if you were talking to impenetrable walls. It really seemed to me that they were completely ignoring the substance of what you had to say and they argued just for argument sake.

    Some of them claimed to be college (“collage”) students, but their construction of ideas and presentation just did not convince me that they are. Perhaps, they have yet to take and pass their college English requirement class.

    In a very abstract way, they seemed to be like “Charlie,” a commentator from Britain, who also took exception to the concepts that you were presenting.

    Or maybe your efforts in raising awareness about racism has caused a disturbance in their belief system that they are perfect. They may actually believe that they live in a perfect world in which racism does not exist. It is possible that they could be suffering some kind of narcissistic disorder as promoted in modern day schools.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7943906.stm

    Thank you for listening.

  59. The Engineer,

    I would have to agree with you. I had the overwhelming urge to change a lot of those constant grammatical errors. I would not say I am the best writer but it does bother me when the errors are so blatant. But, I actually worked at a University and you would not believe the letters I received from some of our “collage” students. You would think they didn’t even teach English these days.

    Sometimes I don’t know why I bother to keep going with these conversations. I just feel like the person just might get a gist of what I am saying and that will be that. I think that it is fruitless and wasteful but I am beginning to see that BrotherP is right. Give them a chance to make their point and then make yours. Then if they come back with more of the same and just ignore any point you’ve made, cut them off after that. It drives me insane and I don’t need that.

    I also read the study showing that kids are being taught to be more narcissistic in schools today. And boy we are going to reap what we sow on that one. But, I personally think that I am somehow upsetting folks apple carts. They feel that we DO actually live in this post racial world where racism has died. And me showing racial disparity in any fashion disrupts that life and threatens their delicate sensibilities.

    Thanks for the reply as always.

  60. King

    I wonder if the whole definition of “race” is being constantly missapplied. What is Black? What is White? What is Asian?

    It seems that “race/ethnicity” as we so often use it, is really just an easy way of categorization. It’s a general term that we can only use to make general identification. But when it comes down to it, there is really no compendious way to define what being “Black” or “White” truly is unless you are using the terms in an extremely indefinite way.

    What we so easily call “Black people” in reality are made up of hundreds of different cultures—perhaps thousands. They do not all agree, they do not all dance well, they don’t all run fast, they don’t all have big ding dongs, they don’t all eat the same food, or talk the same language. They don’t all even like each other. The exact same thing can be said about Whites.

    Before the Age of Exploration, most of the wars fought were between bitter enemies within the same ethnic groups. The fiction that anyone can define how “Black people” act or what “White people” have done is like trying to to describe the characteristics of Red Cars. There is no such thing as “race” in the way that most people think of it.

  61. King,

    You hear this same argument over and over that there is no such thing as race. Yep, go tell that to Amadou Diallo who was killed because of his RACE! Or was he killed for his COLOR? You know what? It doesn’t matter which you use, he was killed for one simple reason he didn’t share every characteristic that a couple of fellows from the dominant culture needed him to be in order for his life to be worth them not taking.

    No one is saying that every race has EVERYTHING in common or that they speak the same language or that they can be grouped by the stereotypes you so aptly rambled off. What is being asked and said by me is if their is NO connection to others by race then why indeed do we have China towns and such? And it goes beyond just culture which would be Chinese. Since you can find Koreans, Japanese and other Asians in and around those places. So is it the fact that they share an Asian culture or something else?

    What makes Irish, Polish, Italian, English and whatever type of European i.e. Caucasian persons group together in the same neighborhoods, towns etc.? What makes “white flight” possible if these people are somehow NOT operating on race only? See these questions abound when people try and prove that race doesn’t exist. Race does exist and all that is necessary for it to exist is for people to see that others look like themselves and thus they believe that they share a common thread with these people.

    So in reality race is just as real as gender. Sure we are all human but then we start to group by characteristics of humanity. We identify as white black or whatever. We identify as woman, man or whatever. We identify as working class, middle class, rich or whatever. We identify as all sorts of things. And they ALL exist as long as groups of people continue to identify as such. It is nothing more than being human and as humans we categorize things, ALL THINGS. If we didn’t then we wouldn’t classify and name animals or anything else. We wouldn’t have a need for names of cars like sedan, station wagon, etc., they would ALL simply be cars.

    So good try but you still can’t explain why people congregate by race if it doesn’t exist. But thanks for the reply.

  62. King

    Well, the really wicked thing about “race” is that you can say that it doesn’t exist and then turn right around and say that it does. And that’s why I think that it is often so difficult to discuss race in any meaningful way—because the definitions of what race is, and how it is percieved vary from person to person, group to group, and generation to generation.

    The answer to most of your examples and follow-up questions above is because most people THINK that “race” exists, and therefore act accordingly. So, in a way, race does exist, but it does so only as an idea in people’s heads. Yes, Amadou Diallo was killed because the police officers believed that he was “other” and “enemy” based on the concept that he was fundamentally different from their own group and that they could predict his actions and attitudes based upon his appearance and apparent culture. The truth is that he was not, except perhaps in a very superficial sense.

    You cannot look at how people sort themselves or congregate, based on the current perceptions of race, as proof of the existence of race because you can’t say if people are reacting to their own social misconceptions or on a biological reality.

    In my thinking, the problem with race isn’t that there are no differences between the way people look and they way that people act, the problem is, who decides where you draw the lines of division?

    Why don’t we call each family a “race?” Why don’t we draw the line at each Clan? How about by Villiage, or by Nation? Who decides how broad the category should be and who should be grouped together with whom? Why do people groups who clearly saw one another as “other” and “enemy” historically now belong to the same general “race” today? (whether they like it or not). Why are eastern Indians classified as Asian when they are biologically, dark-skinned peoples of Cacausoids stock? Because racial divisions are ARBITRARY and don’t really mean anything. That’s what I mean when I say that race is a fiction.

    Sure, you can divide the planetary population based on broad and basic descriptions of how they look, but it doesn’t really mean any more than dividing people based on which hand they favor, or by height, or hair style. It only means something if you BELIEVE that it does, and when enough people believe it, then you get entire societies acting on the concept of “race” as if it were a biological fact rather than something subjective that can be percieved differenty by different people.

  63. King,

    Clap, clap, clap! (wiping a tear from my eye) That was just beautiful! Unfortunately very hollow. Race doesn’t exist, why don’t we call each family a race and so on and so forth are just worthless statements. You wouldn’t have a way to explain how a forensic scientist can tell how skeletal remains are a specific race. Is he guessing or is there a definitive set of inherited traits that each um er uh race shares? According to forensic anthropologist George W. Gill, “race denial” not only contradicts biological evidence, but may stem from “politically motivated censorship” in the belief that “race promotes racism”. (wikipedia)

    So this actually tells me that race is NOT just a social construct but it has biological principles as well. We can’t just go around saying something doesn’t exist because it is uncomfortable or it evokes racists to practice their sickness. In fact if there really wasn’t any race, racists would find something else to hate about “others” or at least whoever is not in the majority.

    Thanks

  64. King

    I realize that writing your opinions and then defending them to posters who disagree takes both energy and courage. Also, let me say that I don’t really disagree with most of your posts.

    OK, about race. What I said about calling each family a “race” is simply a way of asking, where do we draw the lines? Is it a person outside of your family, outside of your clan, outside of your tribe, or regional group? In other words, WHAT exactly is a “race” anyway, and how much importance should be placed on the divisions?

    Of course, we all accept that we’re part of the human race, but where did all of these other divisions of people of different shades come from? Should we simply accept that it’s just natural to perceive one another on this basis, or should we start to ask some questions? I mean, if everyone came from a common set of ancestors, then when did “race” even become a concept? How different from another person do you have to look before you consider them to be from a completely different race than you, and what does that mean?

    For instance, the “race” that crossed the Siberian Land Bridge from Asia and peopled the Americas. When exactly did they stop being Asian and start being Native Americans? Look at the Souix, the Apache, the Navajo, the Arapaho? Are they Asian or did they become another race? And if so, when? And who makes that decision?

    All I’m saying is that it just might bear some looking into, and even thinking about, before declaring it “worthless” right out of hand.

    Oh, by the way, I have never, NEVER, heard of a forensic scientist being able to determine the race of an individual based on skelatal remains. Gender-yes, but race? However, I could be wrong, of course. Can you please direct me to a case where that occured?

    As for “race denial” I think that depends completely on what you mean by the term. If you mean that people who simply say that everybody looks the same, and is treated the same, then I will agree with your anthropologist.

    However, I don’t mean that.

    Besides, there has certainly been more than enough ugliness on the subject of master races, racial supremecy, sub-human races, and the like, to demostrate that there ACTUALLY IS some danger in being hyper aware of race and drawing conclusions based on the concept of biological differences being extrapolated to mean biologically superior and inferior races of people.

    None of that is possible if you simply understand that “race” is superficial and functionally cosmetic and has no real bearing on those kind of issues.

  65. King,

    I understand “where” you are coming from with your assertions about race. I mean every human did begin in the cradle of Africa. That doesn’t mean that we are all African. My only concern is that there are discernible differences in things that go down to the skeletal level. Just because I say that we all belong to different races doesn’t hardly mean that we are somehow different life forms.

    It is just the same with dogs. We know for a fact that a dalmation is a dalmation and a doxon is a doxon. No one thinks they are the same breed or race of dog. But they are BOTH dogs. Saying that one is a doxon and one is a dalmation causes them any harm nor does it mean that one is better than the other. In fact they still mate across breed lines just like humans still marry across racial lines.

    I don’t understand what the hoopla is against there being actual differences in race. If an anthropologist can tell you if the skeletal bones belongs to a specific race then that tells me that there are some sort of differences there that are NOT superficial like you claim. That doesn’t even mean that some race is better than another; it just means they are different aspects of the same overall species. What is so hard about that?

    Also, as far as race denial goes, I was only mentioning it because many people want to deny that race exists as a way to combat racism. Which is totally far fetched. People who are racist will be racist, colorist, heightist, weightist, classist or whateverist as long as they can discern any small difference with them and the next person. Being racist isn’t only about race, it is about being self hating and feeling insecure. So what I am saying is that we could all turn blue tomorrow and then people will find another way to separate themselves from the whole and find something about the “others” that would make the “others” less than in some way.

    But, I thought that it was interesting what he was saying. Anyhow, race is NOT the problem, ignorant people are the problem. Trying to convince everyone that race doesn’t exist isn’t going to stop racism.

    Thanks for the reply.

  66. King

    Well, in a way… it does mean that we’re all African. The question really is how far you want to reach back for your identity. I agree that’s not what we USUALLY mean by “African” today, but that’s just a decision that somebody else made, and we have all gone along with. It’s not some universal and unchangeable reality, it’s just something we’ve all accepted without much thought.

    I think we’re on the same page for the most part, but have you noticed that I have resisted saying outright that, “There is no such thing as race?” I always add, “as most people perceive it.” I’m not trying to say that there isn’t any noticeable difference between Morgan Freeman and Clint Eastwood. I know that people look different depending on how much sun their ancestors got. And I also know that we like to call these differences “races” and I would have no objection if it weren’t for the fact that the term “race” is rather loaded historically.

    The truth is that when the term “race” was first applied to peoples, they really did think that races are like breeds of dogs. However, that is not the case. If human beings were dogs, we’d all be Poodles, just with different colored fur. In fact, to non-Poodles, most of our other differences would be invisible—that’s how close human beings are to each other “racially.”

    Take a look at dog breeds, have you noticed the dramatic dimorphism you get between say, a Chiwawa and a Great Dane? There are differences both in physical appearance and intelligence between breeds of dogs. With human beings the family is MUCH closer than with dogs, fish, or reptiles. There is only one actual BREED of human being.

    Science has spent the last century discovering this fact. It was first suspected that Black people were incapable of the discipline necessary to become effective athletes. (See the 1936 Summer Olympics) Jesse Owens proved them wrong, but most of the world actually believed that theory back then. Can you imagine? It took years after Jesse Owens’ four Gold Medals for them to believe that Blacks had the discipline to excel in competitive sports, like Baseball or Basketball. Why? Because everybody knew that Black people were a different “breed” so these kind of “differences” were to be expected.

    For years, the idea that Black people had smaller cranial capacity and somewhat smaller brains than White people persisted. Why? Well doesn’t a Great Dane have a bigger brain then a Chiwawa? If they’re a different breed/race isn’t it possible? Of course, that has since been categorically disproven.

    The point is that we have been fighting a battle for years to disprove this notion that we are somehow a different breed of human than White People. And the term “race” was really just an early misconception of science which meant “breed.” But it is now a thoroughly disproven theory. Anthropologists can NOT tell whether a skeleton is African or Anglo—usually, they make their assumptions based on what continent the skeleton was found. There is nothing in the bone structures that is significantly different. A European skeleton might have been a bit larger (on average) especially if he was getting better nutrition in his developmental years, but aside from that, they can only guess. They can’t scientifically prove racial origin from the bones unless they are taking into account regional factors that would appear in a skeleton of any “race” if the person had been exposed to the same environment. It’s detective work, not hereditary biology.

    My second point is a bit more esoteric but it is simply this.

    Imagine the following exchange:

    “What county is this?”
    “This is the country of Black.”
    “OK, so how big is this County?”
    “I don’t know.”
    “Well, what are its borders?”
    “They’re kind of hard to describe, no one can say.”
    “Well then where does this county end and another begin?
    “Oh, it depends on who you ask and on what day…”
    “Um… are you sure this is even a Country?
    “Well, it must be. We’re standing in it!”

    That is pretty much what I have been fighting in all of my past posts about race. There MUST be race because we all know that there are Black people and White people, right? But how about “mixed” people? How Black is Black? How White is White? And is there really one unified Black race, or could it better be defined as a loose configuration of many Black races? How about Whites, are all whites equal, are they all the same race? How about if they’re light skinned and speak Spanish? And if we all originated from one continent, (we started out all one color) then is that more or is it less important than our currently diverse appearance? Could we all end up as a single conglomerated “color” in future centuries? If so, how important in the overall scheme are our current racial divisions?

    Those are the “fuzzy edges” of race, and if you can’t truly define the borders, can you truly categorize the subject? Some say yes, many, think not.

    Anyway, I appreciate the interesting discussion.

  67. leala4628

    I have to admit that I haven’t read the comments on this post so I apologise if what I say has already been covered. As far as I can tell the plasters that you suggest are for white coloured skin really don’t suit the majority of white skin, they still stand out on most people and plaster companies can’t really make plaster shades to suit all skin colours. If you want the plaster to be more invisible then get a clear plaster or many people here wear the blue ones for hygiene reasons.

    As for toys, my sister chose a ”Baby Annabel” doll that was black, despite being white. They are freely available here, although I can’t comment on the USA as I have no experience and she proudly took it everywhere with her. I think this is the correct attitude to have, she didn’t have to have a doll that reflecte the colour of her skin she picked the one she liked best.

  68. Leala4628,

    My complaint is NOT being unable to find color coated bandaids. My complaint is with things being marketed as if there are ONLY white people in this country. And I am glad that your sister was able to find a black doll and fall in love with it. It would be nice if that opportunity was available for ALL people of color not just for me and other blacks. I am looking for fair representation not just black toys. But it would be nice to get some diversity in the toys as black dolls are available to some extent. But black toys for boys are NOT. Not to mention not all blacks are dark skinned with dark eyes. As not all white people have blond hair and blue eyes. That is probably the reason they make dolls with brown hair and green eyes. But for blacks we don’t even get any options. And it isn’t fair.

    Thanks for the reply.

  69. p6867

    If you want the option of having products geared towards you, make them. Products don’t just appear by magic. Someone builds them if they’re profitable, they can continue to be built. If not you lose money. good luck.

  70. p6867,

    You are NOT the first person to say this. Let me ask you a question. When you want products do YOU have to go and make them? If not why? So why should I have to make my own products. How racist is that? You act as if blacks, or other minorities don’t spend money. We make up a BIG chunk of the spending demographic so why NOT make products geared towards us.

    Maybe NO one should have products and we should ALL have to make our own products. HOW STUPID! Next time put a tiny bit of thought into your answer before looking like a serious dip wad.

    Thanks but no thanks.

  71. Dark Frosty

    Have you ever heard of Mocha Kidz? Reading a blog called Keeping Up With the Huxtables I happened upon a post about the company Mocha Kidz which is run by a black mother and daughter team that sells merchandise geared toward black children. They sell black dolls, black action figures, films with predominately black casts and about us, literature written by blacks, etc. I had tryed to find your post on a lack of products geared towards us and couldn’t find it, so I figured this would exchange between p6867 and yourself would be the perfect place to make Mocha Kidz’s existence known to you. Since, if I remember your article correctly, you had difficulty in locating products for your children that would boost their self-esteem as black people, reading about Mocha Kidz, I just had to tell you.

    Here is the link: http://www.mochakidz.com/

    What do you think? Would this would help you, and in your opinion, other black parents? It’d be great to know that I have assisted you some.

    Dark Frosty

  72. Kevin

    That Kenneth and Mamie Clark experiment is 40 years old. Do it today and see if you get the same results.

  73. Kevin, you’re referring to the experiment discussed above in which both black and white children preferred white dolls to black dolls.

    The original experiments were, indeed, conducted by Mamie and Kenneth Clark more than 70 years ago. However, the results have been replicated and extended many times in the generations since the original work.

    For instance, in the 2005 documentary “A Girl Like Me,” filmmaker Kiri Davis found the same results, and Professor Margaret Beale Spencer, a child psychologist at the University of Chicago, has conducted a pilot study for a larger research program, in which she is already finding the same outcomes.

    I applaud the scientific reasoning behind your suggestion that the same result about social attitudes might not hold in a later generation. But your casual assumption that the outcome would be different suggests a mistaken impression that racial attitudes in the U.S. today, while admittedly vastly different than in the 1930s and 1940s, have moved decisively beyond prejudice. This is simply not the case.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s