Kids Will Be Kids Unless They’re Black

In a society where the police have said they are going to start cracking down hard on black youth who are wearing their pants too low or sagging as it’s called, it is a wonder to me why in the Baltimore sun it seems that college and university presidents would like to drop the drinking age from 21 to 18 citing that kids are drinking anyway. They claim that not only are they drinking they are binge drinking and you can’t really talk to them about this because they won’t talk since the acts are illegal.

Also, that the crimes associated with binge and underage drinking is quickly rising. These crimes are physical and sexual assaults and DUI. Not to mention cases of alcohol poisoning are rising just as fast as the crime.  And according to US Department of Health Human Services white non-Hispanic youth are the clear majority of those students with underage drinking.  At more than three times that of black youth and twice as much as Hispanic youths.

So it seems that the message we send to black kids is that if you so much as where your clothes in a manner we deem inappropriate which they say is disorderly conduct, we will crack down on you with the full force of the law and not only ticket you but arrest you if necessary.

Yet, according to William R Brody, President of Johns Hopkins, “Kids are going to drink whether it’s legal or illegal,” so we should just lower the drinking age to 18. But, let’s not enforce the laws on these innocent young white kids who are only breaking laws that have been on the books for years. Yet, they had to enact new laws to make sure that the massive crackdown on those saggy pants youth had some legality to it.

Now don’t get me wrong, I hate saggy pants as much as or probably more than the next person. But the message of hypocrisy that is being sent out is blatant and stinks to high heaven. If you are black we will crackdown on you and while we are at it we will enact laws about your pants so that we can make it even more widespread.

While instead of just enforcing the damn laws that are in place on these white youth, we want to change those laws in order to allow white youths to continue to be given every opportunity to excel even though their lack of good judgment is leading to even more laws being broken.

Of course one could say that kids will be kids but then doesn’t this also go for the black kids who are just following a fashion fad no matter how stupid and idiotic it is. I mean how many times have you heard that saggy pants lead to DUI, physical or sexual assaults? So what is the reason besides blatant racism that we would rather change the drinking laws than to actually enact them on white youths all the while screaming from the roof tops that we plan to crack down hard on black youth for a fashion faux pas?

In Flint MI the police chief says that black youth who are wearing their pants below the waist gives officers “probable cause to search saggers for other crimes, such as weapon and drug possession.” Now the cops can easily get around the 4th amendment because who can argue with having bad fashion sense not being probable cause enough to search.

Yet somehow we don’t have enough gumption to be able to burst into these college parties and start dragging those drunk ass white kids downtown for a bit of justice. And while they are at it I bet they find a whole mess of them will have saggy pants that they can then search for all sorts of who knows what. And I bet you that they would find a LOT of who knows what on those kids. But that would be too much like equal justice in the eyes of the law.

We don’t want to stigmatize and subject white youth with criminal prosecutions for the crimes that we KNOW they are committing. It’s easier to just go ahead and change any laws that they violate in order to preserve their good standing in society. We wouldn’t want white youth to actually have their futures tainted with criminal records because they were made to pay for their crimes. And we wonder why blacks are largely over represented in the prison system. I guess this is just a reminder that kids will be kids, that is unless they are black.

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51 Comments

Filed under African American, Black community, Black Culture, Black People, Minorities, Racism, Social Issues

51 responses to “Kids Will Be Kids Unless They’re Black

  1. Exactly the conditions of racial disparity that we constantly teach our children in America. Black kids like Martin Lee Anderson go to boot camp, get beaten to a pulp by seven guards under nurse supervision, and lose their lives for taking grandma’s car without permission, but a gang of white girls who lure another white girl into a house to get her ass kicked are just troubled youths. Black people can’t even walk home at night without police jumping out of the shadows ready to kill a black person because the police are in such fear for their life. White kids binge drink and do drugs but its the black kids who go to jail for having a fiftieth of a gram of crack on their person. Kids will be kids. But black kids are nothing but a menace to society. Excellent article to drive this point home.

    Peace

  2. Brotherpeacemaker,

    So very true. Just as Robert Hawkins the white kid who shot up the mall. All the while they talked about him on the news they showed how troubled he was and how he just needed understanding.

    Yet, then you see news coverage of someone like Martin Lee Anderson who they portrayed as some sort of a mad dog. He took his grandma’s car like thousands of other youth have done.

    It is pathetic that we as a community and I mean all races, tolerate this type of hypocritical backwards behavior.

    Thanks for the reply.

  3. These kids may be getting drunk, but they aren’t committing other crimes, they are also likely to go on to good careers and be respectable members of soceity.

    With half of black kids dropping out of high school it is a fair bet that most are either carrying illegal weapons or living off criminal earnings. The loose trousers are just a sign of the gang culture and probably a good indicator that the person is not an up and coming member of society. Would you let your kids dress that way?

    As for searching, if one group accounts for a disproportionately high percentage of crimes, then in my view they should be searched regularly anyway, using fashion as an excuse is pointless.

    I’d agree with that whether those searched were white or black, or roller skating grannies stealing purses.

    If people don’t want to be thought of as criminals, then perhaps they shouldn’t act, dress and behave like them.

  4. “[If] one group accounts for a disproportionately high percentage of crimes, then in my view they should be searched regularly anyway…”

    And if one group accounts for a disproportionately high percentage of discrimination, quick to associate crime with a particular racial group while dismissing or excusing crime from their own racial group, quick to use media to emphasize word associations like black on black crime while never uttering a single word about the phenomenon of white on white crime which happens on a much more regular basis, it is a fair bet that racial prejudice will continue to permeate our culture with so many people using racism to justify more racism. We believe that black people are likely to be more violent so therefore we can assume that all black are more violent and are potential problems and justify the fact that every black person who fits the profile of being black needs to be preemptively searched, harassed, inspected, investigated, incarcerated, and/or terminated before we have a black problem. How do we justify the disproportionate attention on black people? Statistics show that black people have a higher percentage of per capita crime. But let’s ignore the fact that white people commit more crime. A higher per capita rate takes precedence over higher numbers. And the white kids who binge drink and act drunk and disorderly? “[T]hey are also likely to go on to good careers and be respectable members of society.” White people aren’t likely to commit crime so we can ignore them. The hypocrisy would be funny if it wasn’t so serious.

    Peace

  5. Charlie,

    *Sigh* So by your own assertions we can all say that white people commit far more racist acts than any other race so by that we can now be free to just call any white person we want a racist. Not only that, since they are committing the far majority of racist acts we should be able to put them under a higher powered microscope. I bet if we did that we would weed out ALL the racist and we could start to see some satisfaction. Right?

    Where do you get your statistics, another racist website? You have yet to say anything about the white kids who we KNOW are committing crimes. Why don’t we arrest them and put them in jail. Maybe then the white and black numbers in jail will even up. See you want to look at the blacks and their saggy pants and ASSUME they are criminals. Yet the drunk saggy pants white kids are just being kids.

    You don’t care that they would like to change laws to allow those drunk white kids who are committing rapes, drunk driving and other crimes while drunk. Yet, a fashion statement leads to crime. Instead of asking me if I would let my kids dress like that, why don’t we ask you if you would let your kid drink and commit crimes AND dress like that. Because white kids here dress like that as well. AND NOT ONLY DO THEY DRESS LIKE THAT, THE COPS SOMEHOW DON’T FEEL INCLINED TO IGNORE THE LAWS FOR THEM. Now how fair is that?

    And since we know that white kid are the majority of drinking criminals why aren’t you calling for tougher crack downs? And it IS RACISM to say that white kids will go on and have good lives yet black kids won’t so just jail them. Sorry if it talks like a racist it is a racist. THIS IS THE FREAKING RACISM THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!

    When you sit and try and justify unequal treatment then you perpetuate racism. Maybe the reason we have a disproportionate amount of black people in prison is because just like you said “they are also likely to go on to good careers and be respectable members of soceity.” If this is what is being said in the courts then of course white people will walk the hell out of the courtroom. And blacks will be reprimanded to the prison system.

    And obviously you didn’t READ the post or decided just like our justice system to over look the facts. I guess you didn’t see this line “crimes associated with binge and underage drinking is quickly rising. These crimes are physical and sexual assaults and DUI.” See you are so freaking quick to overlook what the white kids are doing in order to hurry up and get to those drop out, saggy pants, crime committing black kids. You have just showed the problem with justice and race. Thank you.

    Instead of statistics being used to help people better themselves you and most white people throw them around like some sort of weapons of mass distraction. Even though white people make up the largest number of any group of any statistic we always have to take it down to per capita to paint a rosy picture for whites.

    In my book if I have a room of kids and their are 3 black kids and 15 white kids and 2 of the black kids drop out and 6 of the white kids. The problem is that 8 kids dropped out, not that 2 of them were black or that the majority of them were white. People claim that we should treat everyone equally then turn right around and cry that more blacks per capita (fill in the blank). It is becoming extremely tiresome.

    Not to mention there has to be a freaking reason why these kids are dropping out of school. There must be a reason why blacks are going to prison, unemployed, or any other dumb ass statistic you can name. The reason is what we should be looking at NOT the symptoms.

    Thanks

  6. cinque

    Charlie’s rationed, well thought out and however misguided argument helps further know we have not made much progress in this country. No matter how much we howl that we are all the same, with the same wants, needs, pressures. They will never see us as such. Our children, just like us, will have to fight to be seen as people. Charlie is more common among us than we want to think. They believe what he says and see no real need to look beyond that. I am so angry that an opinion has been formed of my 9 year old son, 4 year old daughter and 5month old son already the they are criminals.

  7. Cinque,

    I am not surprised that we have a ton of Charlie’s running around here. He has formed an opinion of our children without any provocation. If one black person commits a crime then we all should be searched just in case. All the while handing out free passes like candy to the white kids who we KNOW are committing crimes. But isn’t this the basis of all racist propaganda?

    Thanks

  8. You don’t care that they would like to change laws to allow those drunk white kids who are committing rapes, drunk driving and other crimes while drunk.

    You see. there is the problem. I didn’t mention white kids drinking, just college/university kids, you have somehow assumed they are all white. If 50% of black kids drop out of high school, then it is fair to assume that the other 50% will be trying to make something of their lives and therefore be at some of these drinking parties! Not all of them are white.

    So by your own assertions we can all say that white people commit far more racist acts

    But the statistics do not support this view, in fact, even though they are a minority group, black people account for more racist attacks each year than white people.

    Where do you get your statistics, another racist website?

    Apparently so, the Department of Justice Website.

    You have yet to say anything about the white kids who we KNOW are committing crimes. Why don’t we arrest them and put them in jail.

    I think you need to keep things in perspective and be wary of this anger you seem to have. Getting drunk is hardly a major crime, sure there are related crimes but let’s not get into related crimes.

    Getting drunk isn’t the same as rape, murder, robbery, battery etc. I wouldn’t even put it on a par with teenage pregnancy, which should be clamped down on (70% of teenage mothers are black), surely that is statutory rape?

    You don’t care that they would like to change laws to allow those drunk white kids who are committing rapes, drunk driving and other crimes while drunk.

    These crimes would still be crimes, regardless of the drinking age. In Europe the drinking age is much lower, and there are far less binge drinking related problems.

    why don’t we ask you if you would let your kid drink and commit crimes AND dress like that.

    Yes, no and no. There is nothing wrong with drinking, it is all about moderation, which is what kids should be taught at an early age. If despite my upbringing, hard work and efforts my child were a criminal, I’d have no hesitation turning them in. As for dress sense, you’d have to ask why your kids would be dressing that way, why are they associating with black US fashion?

    And it IS RACISM to say that white kids will go on and have good lives yet black kids won’t so just jail them.

    That isn’t what I said, it is a far assumption however that kids at college/university will have better lives than those who drop out of high school, regardless of colour.

    “crimes associated with binge and underage drinking is quickly rising. These crimes are physical and sexual assaults and DUI.”

    I did see it, I just think that it is somewhat ironic that you draw attention to it. Crimes such as gun crime, drug related crime and homicide have been steadily rising within the black community for 30 years, surely that should be the priority?

    In my book if I have a room of kids and their are 3 black kids and 15 white kids and 2 of the black kids drop out and 6 of the white kids. The problem is that 8 kids dropped out, not that 2 of them were black or that the majority of them were white.

    If only it were true! You have demonstrated time and again that your actual response would be different, probably blaming the majority white kids for forcing out the black kids. Your primary concern in life seems to be race, yet you see to be facing the wrong way. White people aren’t to blame for the problems within the black community, but you seem to see it as some sort of competition, like a kid counting sweets being dished out, checking for discrepancies and making sure that they are treating you fairly.

    People claim that we should treat everyone equally then turn right around and cry that more blacks per capita (fill in the blank).

    But that is why they are shouting that out.

    Not to mention there has to be a freaking reason why these kids are dropping out of school. There must be a reason why blacks are going to prison, unemployed, or any other dumb ass statistic you can name. The reason is what we should be looking at NOT the symptoms.

    Precisely! We agree at last. You have to realise that it has nothing to do with discrimination or victimisation from white people.

  9. quick to use media to emphasize word associations like black on black crime while never uttering a single word about the phenomenon of white on white crime

    If you don’t understand the reasons for this, then you truly have your head in the sand.

    According to the Department of Justice blacks are seven times more likely to commit murder than whites. 94% of black murder victims are killed by black people. So yes, black on black crime is a big issue.

    quick to associate crime with a particular racial group while dismissing or excusing crime from their own racial group

    But isn’t that precisely what is going on here? You’re picking out a rising crime area with whites in an attempt to smokescreen other problems with blacks?

    white on white crime which happens on a much more regular basis…
    But let’s ignore the fact that white people commit more crime….

    Of course, as there are far more whites to be both perpetrators and victims. That said you do not need to be a mathematician to realise that if black people make up 12% of the general population but 50% of the prison population there is a major problem. White people should account for 80% of the prison population, but they account for less than 50%, blacks should account for 12% but is is more than four times that. This means that whichever way you turn it, black people are far more likely to commit crimes than white people, that simple. It’s no use saying that white people commit more crimes than blacks in total, it is meaningless.

    There is no hypocrisy, you’re the one claiming that blacks have a four times higher crime rate than they should due to racism, then claiming that whites should be punished for having a lower crime rate than their percentage. That sounds pretty hypocritical to me. If white people had a four times higher crime rate than they should, wouldn’t you advocate having them regularly stopped and searched?

    The situation is serious, but only a fool would fail to acknowledge it or worse, blame everyone else.

  10. cinque said:
    I am so angry that an opinion has been formed of my 9 year old son, 4 year old daughter and 5month old son already the they are criminals.

    Whose fault is that though, the white community for not being ignorant of the facts, or the black community for re-enforcing these stereotypes? With 1 in 10 black males seeing the inside of a prison cell in their 20s (10 times higher than whites and 5 times higher than Hispanics), it isn’t hard to see where these stereotypes and the ‘provocation’ come from.

    You can’t blame white people for black people being in a worse position than you were a generation ago, all you can do is ensure that your children break the mould.

    theblacksentinel,
    If one black person commits a crime then we all should be searched just in case

    It isn’t just one black person, but one black male in ten, those are pretty high odds.

    All the while handing out free passes like candy to the white kids who we KNOW are committing crimes.

    Why do you assume that they are all white? Besides, what would you rather have; the police stopping murderers, gun crime and drug dealing, or arresting teen revellers for being drunk?

  11. Charlie,

    Stop trying to make excuses for yourself. The post was about WHITE kids who disproportionately drink while underage and commit crimes. It wasn’t about the percentage that was NOT white or whatever you want to try and fit into the post to make your point. But none of your statistics support the bull crap you say. So why don’t you point that out as well.

    I guess you still did not read the post. These kids aren’t just DRINKING they are committing rapes, drinking and driving, wrecking into people and other crimes all while drunk. I really don’t care that you feel drinking is such a benign crime. Yet you turn around and say that it is OK to jack up black kids wearing saggy pants. That is even MORE benign than drinking. Sagging pants never caused a person to commit a rape. Saggy pants never caused anyone to cause a vehicle accident. Saggy pants never caused a person to be impaired to the point of committing other crimes. So I think you better check your anger.

    I don’t have any anger towards white kids. I have anger for a system that will make the same distinction you made as well. White kids have futures so why bother them for the illegal act of drinking and committing crimes while drunk. Then you tried to justify the harassment of black kids for having bad fashion sense by saying that “With half of black kids dropping out of high school it is a fair bet that most are either carrying illegal weapons or living off criminal earnings. The loose trousers are just a sign of the gang culture and probably a good indicator that the person is not an up and coming member of society.

    So you see “loose trousers” as a sign of criminal intent, but don’t see the crime that IS being committed by teens drinking underage and doing other crimes? How ridiculous, biased and hypocritical can you be? If you are so hung up on pants then why are you not advocating the arrest and harassment of the white kids who wear saggy pants while they are drinking and committing other crimes?

    Nobody ever said that drinking was the same as rape etc. I said that the report said that the kids DRINKING WERE COMMITTING RAPES AND OTHER CRIMES! Again Charlie, where do you get your statistics? How many white teenage mothers are a product of statutory rape? Or does that matter? Is it only important when talking about black teens? See this is the problem by your own admission if white people are the majority then they are the majority of pretty much everything good and bad.

    So we have the majority of teen pregnancies going to white kids yet because of the per capita that makes black teens somehow worse. Here is another analogy for you. If you have 5 pregnant black teens out of 10 and 25 pregnant white teens out of 100, you still have more white teens with babies. Yet somehow it makes more sense to you that we focus on the 5 teens instead of the 25. That makes sense. Because those five teens are going to cause more of a problem than twenty five.

    And just so you know according to USTP stats teens 15-19 birthrate was 66.6 for black, 83.4 for Hispanic and 55.8 for white. Now knowing that white people make up 85% of the US, that is a LOT of teenage births. Do you think that maybe they were due to statutory rape? How about we start throwing those guys in jail, do you think that would help?

    I would never blame the white kids for the black kids dropping out of school. You don’t know me so be careful what you assume. I would blame the school system. Which I already know is a crock of bull since I went through it. They don’t make school helpful for black children. I have had countless teachers say things to the black kids in class that is ridiculous. I had a teacher tell our class that blacks are not smart and therefore don’t do very well in school. When you have a class that is predominantly white and you say these things that is causing an environment of failure. But I guess you have an excuse for that too.

    You know it is white privilege that will allow someone to be able to tell another that their only concern is with race. Maybe if you had to live in a world where your race was a factor in the majority of things that you do, you would understand. But it isn’t so you don’t and it is a shame that you feel that you have some inside knowledge of things you don’t comprehend. You can live in fantasy land where race is a side note only being thought about by blacks with a victim mentality. But unfortunately the majority of this country doesn’t live there. We still have discrimination and systemic racism blaring like a drum solo in an empty hall. So don’t begin to tell me what I am looking for or at for that matter.

    You need to realize that you can’t see the forest for the trees. Actually I think your head is actually embedded in a tree that is just how blind you are to the reality of race and racism. Even though you have no problem spewing racist things.

    You don’t get it and never will.

  12. Charlie,

    How many white people are murdered at the hands of white people? Did you look that one up? That is my main problem with you. You constantly want to point out some black statistic without ever pointing out the white one. White people commit MORE CRIMES overall. So it is realistic to say that white on white crime is even more of a problem. Yet, where is that little tidbit on the news or in the media? Never will be.

    This means that whichever way you turn it, black people are far more likely to commit crimes than white people, that simple.” Have you lost your mind? OK dumb question. Anyway, that is NOT what it means. What it means is exactly what you did earlier. Sure grab blacks for wearing bad clothes yet those white kids have a future and drinking isn’t such a bad crime so why bother them. That is the problem. When you have idiots such as yourself who will overlook white people doing crime because A) it isn’t so bad. B) They have a future. You end up with the ones that you say A) are dropouts. B) Are more likely to be criminals due to more policing and such. And C) They don’t wear correct clothing choices.

    What the hell is wrong with you? If the cops were to focus on white people the way you think they should focus on blacks then the tables would be turned. It isn’t that blacks are somehow more criminal than whites it is that blacks are scrutinized more than whites. Not to mention just like you said “These kids may be getting drunk, but they aren’t committing other crimes, they are also likely to go on to good careers and be respectable members of soceity.” Even though they ARE committing other crimes. You still feel they are going on to good careers and become respectable members of society.

    All the while your mind never made a connection that just because a black kid wears their pants saggy they might be able to go on to a good career or become a respectable member of society. You automatically started in with the they are dropouts and more likely to commit crimes etc. Well I know plenty of kids who have worn their pants in that fashion and still got a college education and are now respectable members of society. Yet, if they were to have to be judged by you, they would be in jail simply because you feel that their standard of dress makes them “more likely criminals”.

    You need to go on a sabbatical and really think hard about your racial views. Because you may not want to be called a racist but a person who continually makes these crazy assertions with no other basis but race as the indicator has some serious issues with race. You throw out statistics from god only knows. You want to rationalize harassing minorities for nothing more than clothing style. You want to overlook white people committing crimes for no other reason than they can still have a future and you don’t think the crime is so bad. Get some help before it is too late.

  13. Charlie,

    Again, how many white men are committing crimes? Answer that one then explain to me why since they are committing crimes we don’t have the same rules apply to them?

    I don’t assume they are all white. I went by the facts of the study which showed them to be OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE. Not to mention in the study only the white kids were NOT being arrested. Minorities were being arrested for drinking etc. So I would guess that minorities drinking is NOT a problem for the cops. They were not asking to raise the drinking age because of black kids drinking. It was because of white kids on college campuses. That is what the study is about, so try not to try and add things that don’t have a place in the study.

    Charlie, I would like the police to stop EVERYONE who is committing a crime. I mean drinking is surely worse than saggy pants. Yet, you don’t have any problem with those minority saggy pants wearing kids being arrested etc. You said that they are more likely to do a crime. Yet, that has never been proven. It has on the other hand been proven that while drinking the white teens were committing other crimes. But somehow you still don’t think it is worthy of the police. Black in saggy pants = criminal. White drunk raping girl = still has a future and will be productive member of society.

    How ridiculous. Stop trying to justify racism. It is getting very boring. There is NOTHING that you can say that will convince me that somehow you are not being racist when you say that the saggy pants minorities are open season but the drinking, raping etc white kids have a future. GET REAL and stop trying to justify stupidity. Either enforce the law on everyone or let it all go. If you don’t want laws enforced then be lenient, but then you will need to be equally lenient on everyone.

  14. The Engineer

    Winston Churchill was an alcoholic, and too often, fellow alcoholics use Winston Churchill as justification for their own alcoholism:
    http://www.bipolar-lives.com/winston-churchill-and-manic-depression.html

    How much do you drink, Charlie?
    Do you combine your drinks with other drugs?
    How much do you smoke, Charlie?
    What do you smoke?
    Do you play cards, Charlie? With friends?
    Do you like the Casino, Charlie?

  15. “If you don’t understand the reasons for this, then you truly have your head in the sand.”

    Actually, I do understand the reasons for this. People like you who justify racism with more racism are the problem. It’s not rocket science. I’d rather be accused of having my head in the sand then suffer your condition of having one’s head up one’s ass.

    According to the Bureau of Justice statistics, in 2005, there were a total of 8,350 homicides committed by white people, 10,285 homicides by black people, and 492 homicides committed by people from other races. The disparity is disappointing for sure but nothing like the X number of times over that per capita statistics people like to use to prove the black community’s proclivity for crime.

    But when looking at the raw numbers from 2005 (click here and go to the bottom of this page), of the 5,720 homicides committed on white people 4,755 were committed by other white people, 934 were committed by black people and 31 were committed by someone who was neither black nor white. Based on these statistics, a white person is 5 times more likely to be killed by another white person than they are likely to be killed by a black person. Statistically speaking, the white woman who sees the black man and runs to other white people is actually taking a greater risk with her life. Of the 4,838 homicides against black people 4,497 are committed by another black person, 337 were committed by a white person, and another 4 homicides were committed by someone neither black nor white. A black person is well over 13 times more likely to be the victim of another black person than they are by white people.

    But look at the overall numbers. White on white homicides are 4,755 while black on black homicides are 4,497. Therefore, if one can spread the propaganda that black on black crime is running rampant and out of control then it would only be a logical conclusion, based on facts and figures from our trusted Bureau of Justice and Statistics which shows in black and white that white on white crime happened 257 more times than its black on black counterpart, that based on raw numbers the white on white crime phenomenon is running even more rampant and is even more deserving of our collective attention. The numbers are a lot closer than anyone would have thought judging by our completely unbalanced and biased focus on the black on black crime phenomenon.

    Peace

  16. miller

    there is no doubt that blacks are closer to the sharp edge of “justice” than whites. and there is no doubt it’s because the USA is tilted in a way that keeps them there.

    i’m deeply ashamed of this truth.

    there is no doubt that whites receive special consideration in all things, including disregard for the law.

    i’m also deeply ashamed of this.

    i can guarantee that if the truth were known, there would be as many or more drugs found on the campus of the predominately white, elite christian university in my city as there would be on the “south” side of the creek.

    i know, because i used lots of drugs while attending this university… and there was nothing i couldn’t get in quantity.

    the truth is i used to be charlie. but somewhere along the way i realized how stupid and narrow my worldview really was.

    i really believe everyone should be treated equally. and i don’t believe that one race is more inclined to be criminal than another. this means our prison population should reflect our general population proportionately.

    i understand why white people like charlie have the views they do… and that those views are terribly skewed, reflecting incredible ignorance.

    i understand why black people are so angry. there is no way i can feel it or empathize since i’ve never been the target of such profound injustice.

    but i know i’d be pissed if i was black!

    i must confess, the black anger intimidates me! it impedes my attempts to break down the walls… and it hurts to see myself being lumped in with the charlies of the world… even though i probably deserve it.

    i wish i knew better how to deal with this.

    perhaps you can help…

    peace

  17. Miller,

    I actually am glad that you are awakened to the reality of life for minorities. Also, I personally do NOT think that you should be lumped in with the Charlies of the world. That is precisely why I try to say some, the majority or a lot. In order not to make those in your place feel like you are being represented by Charlie and his kind. I understand how that is. I understand how one person doing something dooms the black community to all being suspect of it, like Charlie thinks is appropriate.

    I am sorry that black anger makes you feel intimidated. Black anger is not meant for intimidation. It is just an emotion and not necessarily anything that will lead to actions. I can’t speak for all but I am angry yet have no intentions of hurting or in any way trying to bring harm to anyone of any race. What will it accomplish?

    Thanks for the reply.

  18. miller

    thanks for your grace.

    the intimidation i feel isn’t a fear of violence or anything like that… we’re all equally capable of violence.

    the intimidation i feel is born of the feeling that i have nothing to add to the conversation… at least nothing very helpful. it’s born of a feeling that black people have a case that still needs to be made and i’ve been left holding the bag. i have the nagging feeling i’m so far removed from the black experience that i can’t really even enter the conversation. yet i have the desire to do that very thing.

    thanks for making a space.

  19. Miller,

    Thanks for the explanation of your feelings. I just want to say that indeed you do have something to add to the conversation.

    Racial problems are never one way. So the conversation needs to come from both sides. And by you coming here and posting your comments as you have furthers along the conversation in a good way.

    You are indeed welcome to come and add your two cents whenever a post is made. I have many non-black contributors who I feel add so much to the conversation. Giving another view of the same story is advantageous.

    Thanks

  20. You hit a home run with this post! Just a day or two ago, I talking to my wife about a news article I read about the homicide rate among young black men and that I was thinking about writing a story on it. She cried, “Why don’t you write about something people don’t know…Why don’t you write about why the media seems to overplay what blacks do?”

    Seems she was on to something. Following is an excerpt: You know, Martin Luther King Jr. once said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” In parallel I say that a for every child in trouble in an inner city, borough, or hood, there is another in trouble in a suburb, country, or Beverly Hills. The preference of the media to cover only the negative aspects of black societal behavior, and our (both black and white) willingness to buy into this distortion, is the REAL problem. The twisted view we Americans have of our children is preventing us from helping them. As long as African-Americans have these views, which are perpetuated by media, we as blacks cannot possibly understand our children, yet alone steer their behavior in a positive direction. Conversely, with the “all is well” media stories, whites will not even try to change the behavior of their children, yet alone try to understand the issues black youth face each day.

    As a republic, we cannot continue to think that crime in one place simply reflects the norms and morays of “those people.” We must see ourselves as one nation, one people, one planet. We must see the problem of our youth for what it is–an epidemic of national proportions.

  21. Lusitana

    If we ever needed proof that the election of our first black president was not, after all, going to solve everything …
    We have so far to go. I would second what miller and Iam Robert are saying, Black Sentinel.
    We are wasting young lives, black and white (and brown and yellow and, oh God, red).
    It’s good that the Internet has places like this so we can talk to each other and figure out what we think, but we also need a much healthier press (one that doesn’t do just those lazy “all is well” stories), and some responsibility among the media that produce fictional works glamorizing gangsters, rednecks, greedy bastards of all sorts and every other form of less-evolved life.
    And just look at government spending, where what the prison industry and the “defense” industry get far outstrips what education, social programs and infrastructure do.
    Such a big, messy country, with big, messy problems.
    It’s easy to lose hope – and I wonder if hopelessness is not behind a lot of those saggers? If the street’s all you have, maybe the only choice you see is to embrace it? Maybe you’re so filled with fear that you dress like a gangster hoping you’ll be regarded as dangerous and left alone? (Except by the cops.)
    I hate to see kids doing that too, but it means we need to give them something else to hang on to.
    It sure seems overwhelming sometimes.

  22. Lusitana,

    I agree that the kids are in a sense emulating rappers and whoever came out with this fad. But the one thing I can’t forget is a kid called the dark profit who had a post called “Illegal Fads”. And it talked about how these saggy pants are just a fad similar to the bell bottoms or the zoot suit.

    Society thought that kids wearing these outfits were a problem as well. But one thing that resonates with me that you said was that these kids feel hopeless. And with cops shooting black fellas left and right I can see the hopelessness. It is as if they don’t matter to society and are open for extermination by any means. Whether it is the Joe Horns, the store owner, the BART police or other teens, these kids’ future looks awful bleak.

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

  23. The Engineer

    Today, January 8, 2009, at http://www.cnn.com there was an interesting article that I believe applies to some of the more combative responses The Black Sentinel has received:

    “You may be more racist than you think, the study says”
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/07/racism.study/index.html
    A few excerpts:
    “…
    More recent work by Greenwald and colleagues shows that most people –between 75 and 80 percent — have implicit, non-overt prejudices against blacks. Their Web site, Project Implicit, has a slew of tests that Web users can take to compare their self-perceptions to their underlying attitudes about people based on different social categories, such as race, age and obesity. Take the Implicit Association Test

    What is responsible for these attitudes? Experts say one culprit is images in television, news and film that portray blacks in a negative light.

    “I don’t think what’s in people’s heads is going to change until the environment that places these things in their head has changed,” Greenwald said.
    …”

    Here is another article:
    “Aversive Racism — Subtle bias, Combating aversive racism”
    http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/5976/Aversive-Racism.html
    An excerpt:
    “…
    Because aversive racists consciously recognize and endorse egalitarian values and because they truly aspire to be nonprejudiced, they will not discriminate in situations in which strong social norms would make discrimination obvious to others and to themselves. Specifically, when people are presented with a situation in which the normatively appropriate response is clear (i.e., in which right and wrong is clearly defined), aversive racists will not discriminate against blacks. In these contexts, aversive racists will be especially motivated to avoid feelings, beliefs, and behaviors that could be associated with racist intent. To avoid the attribution of racist intent, aversive racists will either treat blacks and whites equally or they will respond even more favorably to blacks than to whites. In such a situation, wrongdoing, which would directly threaten their nonprejudiced self-image, would be too costly. However, because aversive racists still possess feelings of uneasiness, these feelings will eventually be expressed, but they will be expressed in subtle, indirect, and rationalizable ways. For instance, discrimination will occur in situations in which normative structure is weak, when the guidelines for appropriate behavior are vague, or when the basis for social judgment is ambiguous. IN ADDITION, DISCRIMINATION WILL OCCUR WHEN AN AVERSIVE RACIST CAN JUSTIFY OR RATIONALIZE A NEGATIVE RESPONSE ON THE BASIS OF SOME FACTOR OTHER THAN RACE. Under these circumstances, aversive racists may engage in behaviors that ultimately harm blacks, but they will do so in ways that allow them to maintain their self-image as nonprejudiced and that insulate them from recognizing that their behavior is not color-blind.
    …”

    The capitalized emphasis is mine, and that part that I did capitalized does seem to remind us of another commentator on The Black Sentinel forum.

    It is rather interesting that he has been relatively silent for the past few days. I fully expected him to show himself again — like a bad weed on a lawn.

    Thank you for listening.

  24. The Engineer,

    This information was great and completely pertinent to our buddy Charlie. He told me that white people never form their opinion of blacks from the media. I am don’t think he will be back. If he bothers to read or re-read the comments he hopefully will see that his arguments are senseless. Not to mention it is as if these researchers were speaking about him and the plethora of my other nutty comment contributors personally.

    Thanks for the reply.

  25. Here’s a new study that just reinforces the point, Engineer, but in an ugly way:

    The “experiencers” were placed in a room with a white person and a black person, who played out pre-arranged scenarios for the experiment. The scenarios began when the black role-player bumped the white role-player’s knee when leaving the room.

    In the first scenario, the white person did not comment afterwards. In the “moderate” case, the white person said, “Typical, I hate it when black people do that,” after the black person left the room. In the “extreme” case, the white person remarked, “Clumsy n****r.”

    The magnitude of the results surprised even the authors, Kawakami said. Experiencers reported little distress in all three scenarios ….

    “Even using that most extreme comment didn’t lead people to be particularly upset,” said co-author Elizabeth Dunn, assistant professor of psychology at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/07/racism.study/index.html

  26. The Engineer

    Yes. It is ugly. It is also the same link I mentioned earlier. I skipped the basic reaction stuff — we are all too familiar with that — and concentrated on the cause-and-effect of mass media and the imprinting of racism in the public’s psyche.

    In the second link, I liked how it described the transient nature of racism — even within the same person. I believe the excerpt from the second link described “Charlie’s” adversarial behavior perfectly.

    What is interesting about your excerpt is that I have experienced many times in my life during which I am the one who has to listen to some Caucasian make an off-handed remark about an African American or any other Minority

    I am put in a position to make some very hard choices:
    A. Say absolutely nothing, and let the deafening silence make everyone uncomfortable — even the Caucasian too.
    B. Placate the Caucasian by falsely commiserating about how I had experienced the same thing, then trying to dismiss the whole incident, and then trying to change the subject.
    C. Come to the defense of the African American.

    For me, I find it impossible that someone can be completely indifferent over such scenarios as described in that experiment. I believe the scenarios are very distressing.

    I nearly always choose A, stay silent, but if the situation is bad enough, then C is the appropriate choice, but C must be executed in a subtle and covert way. A good example is that many conferences are tape recorded. Tape recorders have a habit of being on before and after conferences. A well placed anonymous mailing of a tape recording can save someone.

    The problem with the Caucasian is that when a Caucasian is in a room, for example, and declares his racism by making an off-handed racist remark, that Caucasian has in fact made a declaration and challenge against everyone else in the room. The Caucasian is implicitly asking everyone else the question, “Are you with me? Or are you against me?”

    That is not fair.

    And by remaining silent, I have already provided my implicit response, “I am not with you on this one.”

    Through no fault of my own, I have just acquired another enemy. That is the terrible thing about Aversive Racism.

    Thank you for listening.

  27. I’m sorry for duplicating your link, Engineer! I read the excerpt you provided, and it was about different work that the same researchers had done earlier. I knew that work well, so I didn’t realize your link was to the new study. 🙂

    I’m white, and it used to be that I never heard remarks like this. I always wondered how many people were out there who could really make comments like that, and whether there might be situations in which I would surprise myself and go along, or simply keep quiet (which to me seems like it would be accepting the comment, not taking a stand against it).

    Then I started speaking regularly to audiences about slavery and race, and I began to hear the full range of white attitudes on race: liberal whites who talk oh-so-carefully about race (broadly speaking, these are your aversive racists); younger whites who honestly don’t see the big deal, except in the distant past; and whites who openly have issues with blacks and don’t see the need to hide it.

    Of course, given the context, I’m free to say whatever I want in response to racist comments. I can put people on the spot about their attitudes, I can start lecturing them about our nation’s racist past or how race works today. I can even take a comment that displays subtle racism, and make a big deal out of it. It’s what I’m expected to do, so there’s no courage in it at all.

    So I still have no idea whether I could ever experience a situation where someone made a racist remark and I might not do the right thing.

    What scares me isn’t the open racists, at least not these days. They’re fewer and fewer every year, and have less power all the time. And it’s not the whites who, like me, would be deeply uncomfortable but might or might not have the courage to speak up. It’s the people who are careful in what they say, but are quietly prejudiced, that I worry about. Those, of course, are the aversive racists.

    That’s why the particular study I excerpted bothers me so much: that so many randomly-chosen whites could be comfortable which such overt racism — and the more restrained, but still obvious, kind.

    I think this is powerful evidence for the kind of aversive racism you mentioned. It’s not aversive behavior, but if so many whites think like this, it’s easy to see that they will engage in aversive behavior.

    The good thing about the work that I do is that I get to confront aversive racists all the time. The film I use as a teaching tool tackles aversive racism directly, and explores how white privilege can justify itself, even in the face of self-awareness and good intentions about racism. Then I can explore these issues with audiences, calling them out on their more subtle prejudices, and help them to see how these prejudices are, today, far more harmful than overt racism.

  28. I really don’t see why you keep bringing up the fact that white people commit more crimes overall than blacks, it is pointless. There is 240 million white people in the US and just 36 million blacks, yet those 36 million blacks account for roughly half of all the criminals in the US. And the statistics that I quoted came from the same information, and the same page that I have been quoting all along, the DOJ page:- http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm where is stated:

    In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites

    Quite clearly on the page. Using per capita figures is treating everyone fairly, sticking purely to overall totals is quite clearly racist, as whites are the majority, such as in the drinking stats that started this.

    Brotherpeacemaker, you really don’t see it do you?

    According to the Bureau of Justice statistics, in 2005, there were a total of 8,350 homicides committed by white people, 10,285 homicides by black people, and 492 homicides committed by people from other races.

    It is this blinkered view that I find really sad. Those statistics show that if there were as many blacks in the US as whites the actual figure could well be 68,567 homicides. A shocking disparity. The US would have to be home to 2 billion white people to get a comparable figure for white homicides. So yes there is evidence for a black proclivity for crime, the question is not does it exist but rather the question should be why and what can be done about it?

    Based on these statistics, a white person is 5 times more likely to be killed by another white person than they are likely to be killed by a black person.

    I’m sorry but your maths is wrong. Those 934 murders were carried out by 12% of the population, the 4,755 by 80%, therefore the white woman crossing the street has a 1 in 50,000 chance of being killed by the white person she runs to, but a 1 in 38,000 chance of being killed by the black person she crossed over to avoid. So statistically speaking, she took the right option.

    As for white on white crime, again on that DOJ page it clearly states that blacks are six times more likely to be murdered than whites and 94% of the time by other blacks. Black on black crime is far more serious than white on white crime, to be comparable there would have to be something like 30,000 white on white homicides a year. It isn’t a case of it being blown out of proportion, it is out of proportion.

  29. What a bizarre and pointless study, had the roles been reversed and the black had said ‘stupid white boy’ I am sure that the results would have been the same.

    This isn’t a racism test, but a test of sensitivity to an overused word that has come to lose it’s meaning in the 21st Century.

    Reading these posts it is shocking to see the word racist bandied around so easily, now it seems that being a racist isn’t as obvious as it was. Now we have avert racists! Talk about pigeon holing people, white people at least. Now you can be a racist without knowing it, or by avoiding it! Seems deep down we white people are all racists, by varying degrees, however do non whites cope!

    It is far too easy for the black community to blame the negative view some white people may hold of blacks on racism, rather than taking a long hard look at the real causes of such ill feelings, which incidentally aren’t restricted to white people. Some of the most racist people I have ever met have been brown.

    There is a negative view of black people, but it is this same view that is held around the world, by many different races, and ironically, also by blacks themselves about other blacks. I have heard the exact same things said about black people in Birmingham, Cairo, Rabat, Karachi and Kinshasa, yet all have different media. In the West we’d call them racist stereotypes, in some of those places it was held as accepted wisdom.

    Sadly the black community in the West only seems to re-enforce these stereotypes, then blame white people for thinking the worst of blacks.

  30. Engineer, Winston Churchill was not an alcoholic, he liked a drink but there is a difference. I do despise the way that we try to retrospectively diagnose people with modern ‘complaints’. Churchill was certainly not bi-polar, which seems to be a catch all for miserable, moody people.

    How much do you drink, Charlie?

    I have an occasional sherry at Christmas, but other than that, very rarely.

    Do you combine your drinks with other drugs?

    Mince pies are generally the only thing that I mix alcohol with. As for drugs, never tried any illegal substance my whole life and never will.

    How much do you smoke, Charlie?

    I do not smoke, never have, never will.

    Do you play cards, Charlie? With friends?

    I played cards as a boy, and the odd game of pontoon at Christmas but if you’re implying gambling, then no, just for fun.

    Do you like the Casino, Charlie?

    I have been to a Casino only a handful of times, played only the once, broke even (won £10 lost £10) and have not played since.

    It looks like you may have prejudged me based on a stereotypical view of white people. Just for the record, I do not go to Church, have never been baptised, do not have a sister and wife with the same name, nor do I live in a white house with wheels. I do not hunt, nor even possess a firearm. Despite the apparent need to pigeon hole white people here, we are all different.

  31. Charlie,

    Don’t alcoholics like to drink? *Rhetorical Question* Anyhow, you now want to complain about being prejudged on a stereotypical view after you said that black kids wearing saggy pants were more likely to be doing crime and therefore their choice of clothes SHOULD be used to prejudge them. Or when you said that those drinking white kids had a chance to become good standing members of society while black kids were a majority of drop outs and should be watched more closely due to some perceived criminal intent of those drop outs.

    Yet, you have pigeon holed me, minority dropouts, drinking white teens and minority kids with saggy pants and now you want to point out someone else’s parallel actions. Rich, just rich. Maybe he was poking fun at you for doing the exact same thing. Maybe he was trying to see just how deep in hypocrisy you seem to be. So why don’t you take your own advice and try NOT to stereotype blacks from America whom it seems you know very little aside from what you see in the media and from those racists websites that you were citing earlier.

  32. Charlie,

    The sad thing about this reply is that WHY WOULD THE ROLES NEED TO BE REVERSED? Has there been a historical precedence for blacks discriminating and using racism against white people? Yet, there IS a historical and current precedence for racism against blacks from white people. And maybe a study to find out just how people deal with racist situations will shed light on the disparity between the two races. We know that you seem to think that black people are causing their own problems.

    But, the majority of us know better. And if some white person is acquiescent in a racist event like the study how likely is it that they are going to do the right thing when a black is being denied a job, medical care or housing due to racism. They are likely to behave exactly like they did in the study, look the other way. But, see that not so subtle result of the study is lost on someone who obviously works to counter or negate any view that racism actually exists.

    It is far too easy for the white community to blame blacks for all situations where blacks are the victims of racists and play as if racism is no longer a factor in life for minorities than taking a long hard look at the REAL racism that still exists. And did you know that there is a negative view of white people held by the majority of people around the world? They are seen as racist. Why? Maybe because in every country they have moved to they have used racism against its original inhabitants. Aborigines in Australia are having a racism problem. The Native American’s, Hispanics and minority Muslims in America and Canada are having a racism problem.In fact Muslims are having a racism problem all over. Minorities who go to live around white people are having a racism problem no matter what the country. Gee, that is a lot of people having a racism problem all pointing the finger at the white man. What do you account for that? Is it just a case of mistaken identity?

    You and those like you need to get your head out of the sand acting as if racism is everyone else’s problem. When it is a problem that revolves around white populations. White people re-enforce these stereotypes that they are racist, then blame blacks and other minorities for thinking the worst of them.

  33. Sorry Charlie!

    Brotherpeacemaker is exactly right. Maybe instead of insisting your own half assed stats are correct you should get the actual number and go from there. Just because you and others can point out per capita numbers which is just point out something like 5 out of 10 blacks do this yet when we look at the real numbers they will have like 2,000 blacks while they will have 6,000 whites committing the same crime. Now to me 6000 would be a bigger problem than 2000 but hey that’s just me.

    I love how you and others CHOOSE to ignore the REAL numbers in favor of numbers that deal only in the black community and call it statistics for the whole of the country. Give me a break.

  34. Sorry Charlie,

    But the link you insist on pointing to does not indicate the number of crimes committed. It indicates rates for a very specific form of crime. I don’t understand why you insist on bringing up a chart on homicide rates and making the assumption that it indicates raw numbers for all forms of crime. A white person of supposedly superior intelligence such as yourself should be expected to know the difference between the two. I guess white people being intellectually superior is just one of those urban legends. The reason you don’t see why I bring up the fact that white people commit more crime while your’re insisting that black people commit more crime is because you are so delusional you refuse to recognize, or are just incapable of acknowledging, anything that does not support your racially biased views.

    I really don’t know what blinkered means. But if you said it chances are I don’t like you using it as a reference to me. Nevertheless, math is math. 934 murders committed by black people out of an overall total of 5,689 is a murder rate of 16.4% compared to 4,755 murders by white people out of 5,689 is a rate of 83.6%. We are talking rates so I thought you would understand. But in your selective reasoning process, it is only statistical rates that support your racial bias that apply. If anything is sad, it is your insistence that only certain numbers count. It isn’t the raw number that says white people commit more crime, it is the per capita rates that can infer that black people commit more crime.

    And all this time I thought people in the United Kingdom were smart.

    Peace

  35. theblacksentinel,

    The prejudice remark was tongue in cheek, it is human nature to try and equate people with known viewpoints, that is how we empathise and reconcile their views.

    Has there been a historical precedence for blacks discriminating and using racism against white people?

    Yes. In Britain there are twice as many racists attacks on white people, as there are on non whites each year. It is a similar story in the US. You have never been a white person in an all black situation so how could you possibly judge whether there is racism against whites!

    Ask a white friend to visit an all black neighbourhood, then ask them to recount their experiences, you may well be surprised. You see in modern times racism against blacks is seen as taboo, racism against whites is seen as justified, about time and payback.

    As for avert, or overt racism, take a look at this video:-

    There is so much avert racism against whites in that clip it is unbelievable, yet to you that is probably acceptable. Also when the kid said he’d vote for Obama because he was black, at no point does the teacher point out that isn’t how we should vote in an equal society, that we should vote based on policies and ability – as I am sure she would have had one of the children said: “McCain, cos he’s white.

    And did you know that there is a negative view of white people held by the majority of people around the world?

    But that is my point, it is well earned and entirely justified view, so why is it so bad for blacks? Mistaken identity?

    When it is a problem that revolves around white populations.

    If that were the case why is it only blacks that suffer from this? Poverty and crime rates are far lower than they should be among other minorities, lower even than whites, despite this inherent racism within the white community.

    …when we look at the real numbers they will have like 2,000 blacks while they will have 6,000 whites committing the same crime.

    This is what quite frankly I find astonishing, it is like the Emperor’s new clothes except you simply won’t acknowledge the problem even when everyone is shouting that you’re naked.

    Sure you have have 6000 white criminals and 2000 blacks and whites are accounting for more crimes, if that makes it OK you stick to that. There’s not a problem until blacks are accounting for more crimes than whites – oh wait, they already do. According to US prison population in 2005, 40% of inmates were black, just 35% were white. That should be 12% and 80% respectively. There are no real numbers, just numbers and they do not paint a pretty picture. If you’re happy with blacks exceeding and almost equalling white crime rates in many areas as long as they are lower in certain areas – despite the fact that there are 7 times more whites than blacks, then I’m shocked. Whites should have a seven times higher conviction rate than blacks.

    brotherpeacemaker said:
    A white person of supposedly superior intelligence such as yourself should be expected to know the difference between the two.

    Quite right, I apologise, please see the prison stats above. I used homicide rate as it is the worst form of crime and a good indicator to crime levels overall and it was all the information that I had at the time.

    I guess white people being intellectually superior is just one of those urban legends.

    You shouldn’t subscribe to racial stereotypes.

    I really don’t know what blinkered means.

    OED – noun chiefly Brit. 1 (blinkers) a pair of small screens attached to a horse’s bridle to prevent the horse seeing sideways. 2 (blinkers) a thing that prevents someone from understanding a situation fully. verb 1 put blinkers on (a horse). 2 cause to have a narrow outlook.

    Nothing racist or offensive.

    I find this sad because if people like yourselves from within the black community aren’t noticing these problems and working to counter them, who is? The more you ignore these problems and pretend that there is no problem the more fuel you are adding to the far right fire, as it can be taken as justifying them. Worse you are blaming whites, angry at whites and almost trying to score points back for blacks. Failing to realise that if you’re taking this view, and thinking these things about white people, what about not so well educated blacks in poor communities?

    Bill Cosby pointed out these problems years ago, and amazingly was lambasted by the black community for doing it. This “What problem, there is no problem. Whites are the problem” attitude is doing far, far more damage to race relations than any far right group could.

    This bizarre attitude of there not being a problem, or worse – it’s not as bad as white people make out, is making even liberal whites re-assess their views and start thinking about a firmer stance. I mentioned before that the Racial Equality Commission head, himself black, suggested segregating black boys to combat them dropping out of school and drifting into a life of crime. Needless to say the black community were up in arms about this suggestion, far better to ignore the problem and blame others than tackle it head on.

  36. Charlie,

    I don’t understand why you are trying to tell me about blacks attacking whites in Britain. I thought we were talking about the U.S. Anyhow, having someone not want you in their neighborhood is a far cry from keeping people from getting jobs, medical care and housing. Now why don’t you show me where here in America there are blacks who are somehow keeping whites from these things I mentioned. What we are talking about here is systemic racism not “a black person looked at me wrong as I walked down the wrong block.”

    The number of blacks who would not vote for McCain for being white is slim to none. The fact that blacks have had to vote for a white man every year that they were allowed to vote should tell you that much, geez. Yet, you have people each and every day saying things such as they wouldn’t hire a black person or they wouldn’t vote for a black person. So just because you think blacks did it too doesn’t mean that it is somehow less offensive when whites do it. Also, the more you pretend there is no problem the more fuel you are adding to the far left fire (sound familiar?)

    I think that you are full of shit. You ask why I am pointing out that whites do more crime. Simply because you keep coming here and saying crap such as blacks are doing the majority of crime. If you and I both agree that whites commit more crime then that statement is either a lie or I don’t really know what. If black crime is a problem and we know that whites commit MORE crimes then why isn’t white crime a problem? Why don’t you answer me that one. Stop worrying about black crime while continuing to ignore white crime. That is the gist of it. No one is saying that blacks don’t commit crime or crime isn’t a problem in the black area. What is being said to you although you seem a bit thick, is that CRIME IS BAD ALL OVER. Don’t ignore one group of criminals while wagging your finger at others it’s only logical.

    What makes ME angry is not that blacks exceed all others in crime, it is the fact that blacks exceed all others with unemployment, sub standard health care, living standards and sub standard education. When were you going to get to those excesses? When are people going to stop looking at the symptoms and start looking at the disease? What exactly do you think causes crime? Why are these people unemployed at twice the rate of white people? And please the overwhelming majority of people hiring and firing are white so don’t say that blacks should hire them. Also, a study (one of those darn studies you hate) by Devah Pager which showed that white men with a felony record and only a high school diploma received a call back rate for employment of 17%. Yet, black men with a four year college degree and NO criminal record got a call back rate of only 15%.

    And I guess you will tell me that the reason for these statistics are that black men with a college degree were acting stereotypical and forced those white employers (which in the study showed that this was an overwhelming fact) to decide they would rather take a felonious white man who barely got through high school. See you talk a good game but you don’t have the facts on your side. You can tout all the criminal statistics in the world, yet we all know that nothing happens in a vacuum. There is always a cause to any effect. And these black criminals didn’t just hatch from eggs or drop out of trees. Nope they were created but not by those retarded means.

    So instead of always having each and every point you try and make about black people be filled with stereotypes of them being criminally inclined, future less high school drop outs, why don’t you try and go back even further. The reason you don’t is because it blows a big hole in your entire argument of blacks being somehow completely and utterly responsible for all of their bad press, bad conditions and everyone’s crime problem. Also, you are right white’s should have a higher conviction rate than blacks but they don’t. Why don’t you ask why? Why don’t you read the DOJ’s study on how the judicial system in America is biased? Why don’t you look at the fact that if you are constantly profiling people by race and that race doesn’t include white people that they are going to get away with more crimes than the next person. It doesn’t mean they don’t commit crimes.

    It is the same with the white kids drinking. If they were to go ahead and arrest them for these crimes, no matter how simple you feel it is, their numbers would rise. If they were to spend the amount of time they spend on fashion faux pas in the black area in the white areas their numbers would rise. And according to a 2005 study by the Justice Department found that while Hispanic, black and white drivers were stopped by the police about as often, Hispanic drivers or their vehicles were searched 11.4 percent of the time and blacks 10.2 percent of the time, compared with 3.5 percent for white drivers. I guess you think that this is an accident? And maybe just maybe if they searched white people’s cars at the rate they do for Latinos and blacks they would be carting a bunch of them off to jail.

    Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses. So like I said start looking beyond your silly little stereotypes.

    What you should be shocked about is the fact that you want to play down, discount and overlook any and all racial disparity that exist in favor of this phony everybody is equal and somehow blacks are just doing everything wrong. Sometimes Charlie racism plays a role. See here in America we have this thing called systemic racism which is basically what Brotherpeacemaker calls racism on cruise control. Maybe you should read the post he did on it, as it might help you.

  37. “In Britain there are twice as many racists attacks on white people, as there are on non whites each year.”

    Charlie,

    I’ve just realized a very important fact. As theblacksentinel said, you see counts that indicate white people commit more crime but hold fast to your conclusion that since black people have higher rates of crime per capita, black people commit more crime. Therefore, it really is nonsensical to try and convince you with numbers regardless if they are rates, counts, or factual. You will hold on to your insistence that young blacks will lead a life of crime while young white people will become outstanding citizens despite the fact that they break laws.

    So when you say black people commit more racist attacks in Britain, chances are there is nothing to support your statement other than your selective reasoning thought processes. Like many people who hold fast to racism, nothing can convince you to give up your beliefs. Your racism is much too thick to change. Nothing you say holds water because it’s so heavily tainted with your racist perspective. If I thought I was spending my time trying to convince a reasonable person then I would be more than happy to continue a reasonable dialog. But this has become a total waste of time.

    So black people in Britain are more racist? I seriously doubt it. Based on your selective math and skewed reasoning of crime here in America, I have every confidence that you really don’t know what you’re talking about. You are far from being someone who can be trusted in this matter.

    Peace

  38. You know I’ve been doing my type of work for 5 to 6 years… I started out at $9.50 an hour.. it took me 6 years to get to where I’m at (payscale) I just found out that my co-worker makes just as much as I do (and it ain’t $9.50)and she’s just out of school. No special degree no special school. As fuckin pissed off as I was I didn’t want to hurt anyone although some thoughts did run through my mind. Oh yeah, she’s white I’m black. I wonder how this happened. As I’m more proficient and knowledgeable with the program we use.

  39. Damien,

    That is so ridiculous yet so very common for black folks. And of course the Charlies of the world will have us all believe that somehow that isn’t the fault of racism. Somehow you exhibited some sort of stereotypical behavior exclusive to blacks which caused them to see the white newbie as your equal. When we all know that we (blacks) have been given the sham in employment from the day we first gained our freedom.

    Thanks for the reply

  40. Sorry Charlie,

    I had to let you go. Next time reply to what I said not what you want to add on to it. I said that systematic racism was not the same as being harassed walking down the wrong street.

    You come back with “what if it was a white neighborhood, what if they were white jobs and on and on. It is like we are talking about someone stepping on my foot and you will come back and say well what if they stepped on your foot and stabbed you in the neck and on and on.

    It defeats the purpose. It wouldn’t matter if it were white, black, Hispanic or Asian neighborhood. The point is that EVERY race of people are playing the stupid neighborhood is mine game. And yes it is stupid and they should stop. White people walking in black neighborhoods in Britain are harassed and whatever else. The same thing goes on with minorities in white areas, and with whites in minority areas here in the U.S.

    This is not the point of the post at all. The point is there is this big, freaking huge, colossal, outrageous and anything else you think of, disparity between races. And it isn’t due to some perceived stereotypical acts by the black race.

    This is real, it does exist and regardless if you or those who think like you believe it, it hasn’t gone away. We can’t just sit in a bubble and pretend that minorities are acting as ONE single entity and that entity is always wrong. We all have our own thoughts, behaviors and experiences. So there is NO stereotypical way for blacks to behave so please just stop already.

    Thanks

  41. theblacksentinel said:
    Somehow you exhibited some sort of stereotypical behavior exclusive to blacks which caused them to see the white newbie as your equal

    You mean she isn’t? I thought we were all equal now? It is difficult to comment without knowing the job, but surely if they are doing the same job, they should be paid the same? I used to have the same problem years ago, I started on a poor wage but over the years the starting salary increased along with my wages so new starters began on the same wage as me, annoying as it was we were doing the same job. That said I do believe that experience counts for a lot and should be better reflected in salaries, although other than Government work, it really is these days.

    I don’t know whether what you say about blacks on lower salaries is correct but I do believe that wages should be more transparent to avoid discrimination. In Britain at least, women tend to be paid less than anyone else.

    When we all know that we (blacks) have been given the sham in employment from the day we first gained our freedom.

    You see it is that kind of talk that really annoys me. It has been 200 years since the end of slavery, yet you make it seem fairly recent, as of white people emancipated the slaves grudgingly and are just itching for an excuse to slap the shackles back on. Such a negative viewpoint surely only makes matters worse and gives you a cynical view of white people.

  42. Charlie,

    Just because slavery is over does not mean that the abhorrent treatment that occurred afterward is not over. That is the type of talk that irritates me. When you can look and see the disparity and the difference in treatment how can you then turn around and say that “hey slavery has been over 200 years ago?”

    In fact suffrage has been over as well, so why now are women making less money in Britain? I guess you don’t have an answer. I guess it doesn’t matter as long as you can point out something stupid like “it has been over for x amount of years.” You sure make a lot of assumptions. No one said that anyone was eager to slap anything on anyone.

    I am clearly saying that… OH God what is the point with you?

    Good bye Charlie

  43. “It is difficult to comment without knowing the job, but surely if they are doing the same job, they should be paid the same?”
    “That said I do believe that experience counts for a lot and should be better reflected in salaries, although other than Government work, it really is these days.”

    Utter bullshit.
    So, fuck it that I’m faster and I can handle a bigger workload. So, it doesn’t matter that all that time I spent training in 3d surfacing in two version of this program. That shit doesn’t matter.
    When I started I wasn’t get’n paid what the other MORE EXPERIENCED were getting paid. I know that for a fact. Because their title said SENIOR and mine didn’t. I’m just trying to figure it out, although I already know.

  44. I can’t let this go without a quick glance at the facts:

    It has been 200 years since the end of slavery, yet you make it seem fairly recent ….

    Charlie, it’s only been 44 years since blacks in the U.S. gained even the legal right to equality in employment. Prior to that time, discrimination in employment was practiced openly and legally, and was pervasive.

    I gather you’re British. Blacks in Britain only received the legal right to equality in employment 32 years ago, so you have no excuse for misunderstanding on that score.

    And while we’re on the subject, slavery was abolished in the U.S. only 143 years ago, and in the British empire, a mere 31 years earlier. While this may seem like quibbling to you, you have to suspect how insulting it must sound, when you exaggerate these figures as part of an argument telling people, in effect, to “just get over it.”

    As for whether “white people emancipated the slaves grudgingly and are just itching for an excuse to slap the shackles back on,” that’s a whole other discussion. I’ll just point out that for many white people, emancipation was indeed a grudging act at best, and it’s quite clear that not everyone thinks of blacks as their equals, even today.

  45. James,

    Great reply! It really does seem that it will fall on deaf ears or a mushy mind. One or the other. But it was nicely said anyway.

    Thanks

  46. Damien,

    He knows doggone well that what he is saying is crap. I don’t think a person without a racist heart would actually have the gall to say these ridiculous things. I think anyone who has read your reply understands EXACTLY what you were saying and could also see just how terrible that situation is.

    And regardless what Charlie thinks I don’t think that BrotherP nor myself would be in agreement with that situation whether it was a white man and a black lady comes in making the same as him with no special training nor any experience. That is just irritatingly stupid. Yet this is what I am talking about with this guy. If you make a statement he wants to come back with something off the wall.

    Thanks for the reply.

  47. James,

    Slavery ended in Britain in 1807 – 56 years before the US. It ended through an act of parliament because an overwhelming majority believed slavery to be abhorrent and immoral. This is why the Royal Navy was deployed to stop and seize slave ships in the Atlantic, including those heading to the US and free the slaves, for over half a century. Hardly the actions of nation where ‘many’ wanted to keep slavery going.

    There wasn’t a need for laws against discrimination in employment, non white immigrants didn’t arrive in Britain until the 1960s and 70s, but the Race Relations Act was passed in 1965, and outlawed discrimination. This was followed by the Race Relations Act 1968 and then the Race Relations Act 1976, Race Amendment Act 2000, and the upcoming Act allowing discrimination against white males, in favour of female or black applicants.

    The holocaust was a mere 60 years ago, yet Jews today harbour no ill will towards modern Germans. You have to ‘get over it’ or hate.

    theblacksentinel,

    Thank you for at least giving me the chance to put my point of view across, even if it fell on deaf ears. I believe Tim articulated himself better in the comments on another post, you should perhaps re-read what he said and digest it thoroughly, otherwise your view of white people could end up becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

  48. Charlie, slavery ended in the British empire in 1834, as I indicated.

    You’re thinking of the slave trade, which was outlawed by both Great Britain and the United States in 1807.

    And, yes, many British subjects wanted to continue the slave trade in 1807, just as many wanted to see slavery itself continue in 1834. Just consider that the U.S. also had its “Africa Squadron” to stop illegal slave trading, just as Britain did, despite the fact that you know many in the U.S. still wanted the slave trade and slavery, which was still legal and widespread in the American South.

    There wasn’t a need for laws against discrimination in employment, non white immigrants didn’t arrive in Britain until the 1960s and 70s

    A fascinating statement, Charlie. I won’t take issue with the “need” for anti-discrimination laws; I’ll simply point out that there were blacks in the U.K. long before the 1960s. There were blacks in Great Britain in the 1700s, for instance, and there were growing numbers by the time the 1960s rolled around.

    the Race Relations Act was passed in 1965, and outlawed discrimination

    I said “employment,” Charlie. You’re thinking of the first Race Relations Act, which did not cover employment at all.

    I was referring to the Race Relations Act of 1976, which did forbid racial discrimination in employment.

    Jews today harbour no ill will towards modern Germans

    That’s obviously not entirely true, but do Jews today have any reason to harbor ill will towards Germans? Are they routinely discriminated against by Germans, for instance?

    Or have today’s Germans, in fact, acknowledged and resoundingly repudiated the actions of their ancestors in the Holocaust?

    If only the U.S. could fully acknowledge and repudiate its history of slavery. At least the U.K. properly commemorated the 200th anniversary of the abolition of the slave trade last year; in the U.S., few people even know that the bicentennial had taken place.

  49. James,

    Just to clarify, the Race Relations Act 1968 dealt with employment, according to the the BBC on this day:

    The new Race Relations Act has come into force, making it illegal to refuse housing, employment or public services to people because of their ethnic background.

    I remember it clearly. You were right though the 1965 Act dealt only with public racism (i.e. signs such as No Blacks, No Dogs and No Irish – blacks had to be removed from the sign).

    I think that you are confusing the end of slavery in Britain and the end of slavery in the US, ironically most people in Britain do to. Slavery ended in Britain in 1807, completely. There were no slaves in Britain after that date whatsoever. The US and Britain abolished the importing of slaves at the same time, but slavery itself continued in the colonies until 1834 and in the US until 1863.

    I also don’t think that you can compare the US Africa Squadron, which ran from the 1840s till the 1860s with the West Africa Squadron and Britain’s other efforts, which started in 1808 and lasted right into the 20th century. The British also toppled African Kings who refused to stop dealing in slaves. This is of course another fact that is often over looked, it was Africans that were capturing and then selling their fellow Africans to white men, and then when that ended to Arabs. The image of white men attacking and capturing African villagers is just that, an emotive image, but a false one.

    Also as far as I know the US efforts were half hearted and ineffectual (no doubt as you say due to slavery continuing in the South), they refused to co-operate with the British in the early days and by the end of slavery in the US had seized less than 20 ships. Compared to about 1,500 by the British. The British also treated dealing in slaves as piracy, and a hanging offence. In the US a fine was usually all that was received.

    And, yes, many British subjects wanted to continue the slave trade in 1807

    Not true. Apart from having to get a majority in parliament to be passed in the first place, the overwhelming majority of British people, and we are talking about the high 90s per cent wise, were either against slavery or had no interest in it. A very small elite benefited from slavery, the rest either couldn’t afford slaves or were kept out of jobs by them. Let’s be honest here, the people who were pro slavery would have also liked to enslave the poor working people of Britain too, if they thought that they could get away with.

    Long after slavery had ended, when the British public heard late in the 19th century that the Arab slave trade had simply picked up and replaced the Western one, they were up in arms and once again the Royal Navy was dispatched to end it.

    There were blacks in Great Britain in the 1700s, for instance, and there were growing numbers by the time the 1960s rolled around.

    Prior to WWII there were millions of blacks in the US, whereas there were a few thousand in Britain, I don’t think that you can compare the two. Most blacks left Britain after slavery to either settle in the colonies, or in Sierra Leone. Sure there were some who remained, but there were far more other ethnic groups, such as Arabs and Indians in the UK than blacks, but altogether you’d be looking at far, far less than even one tenth of a per cent.

    At least the U.K. properly commemorated the 200th anniversary of the abolition of the slave trade last year; in the U.S.

    I doubt many of the youth in the UK even knew what it was about, apart from being unlikely to understand words such as bicentenary and abolition, slavery is not taught in schools in Britain, or at least British slavery is not, US slavery is.

    That’s obviously not entirely true, but do Jews today have any reason to harbor ill will towards Germans?

    More Jews settle in Germany each year than in Israel, despite the history of anti-Semitism that started long before Hitler. Those feelings don’t just disappear completely, after all the Nazi’s were voted in and popular for a time. As I said though, the Jews do not hold a grudge, even though no one could blame them for never having anything to do with the Germans again. There may well be anti-Semitism going on, but the Jews don’t go around Germany expecting it, and just waiting for it to happen and be proved right.

  50. Just to clarify, the Race Relations Act 1968 dealt with employment

    Thanks, Charlie, for clarifying that you’d meant to refer to the Race Relations Act of 1968. You’re right that this legislation did address employment.

    The reason I counted from the Race Relations Act of 1976, rather than 1968, was because the 1968 act was considered minimally effective in the area of employment. If you had said 1968 instead of 1965, I would have granted you that it was an arguable point. 🙂

    I think that you are confusing the end of slavery in Britain and the end of slavery in the US, ironically most people in Britain do to. Slavery ended in Britain in 1807, completely.

    Actually, Charlie, the confusion isn’t over Britain and the U.S.

    You’re confusing Britain with the British Empire. I was careful to say that I was talking about the date in 1834 when Britain finally abolished slavery within its empire. Slavery within Great Britain itself had ended with the Somersett case back in 1772.

    The Slave Trade Act of 1807 concerned slave trading only, and didn’t free any slaves at all. Meanwhile, in the U.S., slavery didn’t end until the 13th Amendment in 1865; you may be thinking of the Emancipation Proclamation, which didn’t free any slaves at all. (The two executive orders making up the Proclamation applied only to territories not under Union control, and exempted slavery in the border states. So slavery continued in the U.S. for another two years, in both law and practice.)

    I also don’t think that you can compare the US Africa Squadron, which ran from the 1840s till the 1860s with the West Africa Squadron and Britain’s other efforts, which started in 1808 and lasted right into the 20th century.

    I can certainly compare them. Both represented a substantial investment of military resources in the cause of stopping the illegal slave trade. They were certainly not equal efforts.

    In particular, you’re right that the U.S. effort was less consistent: there was a U.S. Africa Squadron in the 1820s, and again, as you say, in the 1840s and 1850s. It was also less effective.

    The British also treated dealing in slaves as piracy, and a hanging offence.

    U.S. law also deemed slave-trading to be piracy, and a capital offense. But the U.S. was, as you say, less consistent about applying that punishment in practice.

    Apart from having to get a majority in parliament to be passed in the first place, the overwhelming majority of British people, and we are talking about the high 90s per cent wise, were either against slavery or had no interest in it. A very small elite benefited from slavery ….

    The movement to abolish the slave trade worked very hard to achieve that parliamentary majority, and only did so upon considerable maneuvering.

    Your claim that only a “very small elite” in Britain benefited from the slave trade is both wrong, and not evidence that most subjects didn’t wish the trade to continue.

    In fact, slave trading was a substantial business in Britain, employing vast numbers of people as seamen, shipbuilders, and provisioners of slaving voyages. Virtually none of these people wanted the trade to end.

    Moreover, many British were in favor of slavery and the slave trade. British consumers benefited every day from slavery in the West Indies, for instance, and had little understanding of (or desire to understand) the horrors of slavery.

    You actually say:

    A very small elite benefited from slavery, the rest either couldn’t afford slaves or were kept out of jobs by them.

    You’re responding to a quote from me about the slave trade. I’m not sure if you meant to refer to the slave trade, or if you assume that slavery and the slave trade amount to the same thing in terms of popular opinion.

    In any event, as I’m sure you know, there was no slavery in Britain by 1807. It was legally ended in 1772. So it’s not a question of whether those in Britain could afford to own slaves or not.

    No one in Britain was out of a job, either, because of slaves. Those slaves were elsewhere in the British empire, in the West Indies, for instance. No British were lining up to leave for the Caribbean to work on, for instance, sugar plantations as manual laborers.

    Prior to WWII there were millions of blacks in the US, whereas there were a few thousand in Britain, I don’t think that you can compare the two.

    I wasn’t comparing the two, simply pointing out that it’s not true that there was no need for anti-discrimination legislation in Britain on the grounds that there were no blacks.

    I doubt many of the youth in the UK even knew what it was about, apart from being unlikely to understand words such as bicentenary and abolition, slavery is not taught in schools in Britain, or at least British slavery is not, US slavery is.

    Actually, the government spent large sums of money on programs to educate students in U.K. schools about the bicentennial of the abolition of the trade.

    Whether that teaching was effective or not, I don’t know, but hopefully you aren’t familiar with it because you weren’t still in school.

    the Jews do not hold a grudge, even though no one could blame them for never having anything to do with the Germans again

    I don’t know about whether anyone could blame them, but as I said, Jews no longer suffer at the hands of Germans, and most Germans today weren’t even alive then. Today, Germany (and most Germans) go out of their way to acknowledge the horrors of the holocaust, and are careful to eradicate any traces of anti-semitic thought or behavior from public life. (There are, of course, neo-Nazi groups, but their actions are outlawed and publicly shunned.)

    If only the U.S. were as open about acknowledging and repudiating the sins of its past.

    There may well be anti-Semitism going on, but the Jews don’t go around Germany expecting it, and just waiting for it to happen and be proved right.

    I don’t know what world you live in, Charlie.

    But I can see blacks in the U.S. facing prejudice every day. They know to expect it, and in many cases, to be prepared to deal with it.

    If you’re not prejudiced towards blacks, despite all that you’ve said here, then congratulations. But please don’t assume that everyone is as open-minded and color-blind as you claim to be, or that all traces of the past have been erased from our society.

  51. Charlie,

    I just found out what the word blinkered means. It is an unflattering and offensive reference to a narrow minded person. Children would never refer to their parents as a blinkered. Your definition of blinkered was a toned down description of the word. I have a few words to describe your behavior. You’re obviously a bloody, lily livered, wanker. That means a man who knows how to handle his wood.

    Peace

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