When Conversations About Race Go Bad

I am getting so sick of the self centered comments that come with talking about race. The first thing that happens when you talk about race is that a lot of white people will inevitably come back with a “but if it happened to a white person…” These comments are just moot since the disparities that I am speaking of don’t happen to whites at least not at the proportion that it happens to blacks. I am sure that problems exist on both sides of the fence. Whites are passed over for jobs, get bad service, hear derogatory names, get pulled over by police and even get shot by the police.

The problem is that blacks are unemployed at twice the rate of whites, businesses are underrepresented with blacks, bad service usually comes with a racial tag, the derogatory names that blacks have to endure were used to subjugate blacks plus injure to a degree that most names a white person is called could ever do, blacks are pulled over continuously for being seen with those black faces, sure whites get shot but blacks get shot far more and in numbers that would put a blush on the face of any self respecting hit man. With the number of bullets put into blacks the cops could shoot up a whole city of white people.

I see that Oregon has decided to add a book about their racist past to the school curriculum. And of course there are white people already up in arms to ask why we have to hear about this. Why don’t we get to hear about all the whites who lost their lives to help civil rights move forward. See this is my point. You can’t have a discussion about anything that shows white people in a bad light without those insecure folks who just HAVE to have some mention of how great white people are. Is it that hard to hear about the terrible things that your race has done? Is it that hard to acknowledge a wrong without throwing in all the good that has been done?

Blacks have to constantly sit and endure the pointing fingers of imputation from not only whites but other blacks as well. The constant barrage of how we need to take responsibility for whatever ails the black community that week. Yet those pointing the finger the hardest are those who have the worst time taking responsibility for the actions of their forefathers and their own community at large. The minute you start looking into how the other half lives it is reverse discrimination and you are a racist. I don’t see one reason why Oregon shouldn’t explore its racist past, present and future. From what I am reading from these people writing about it, it sounds like there is no racism in Oregon. And I know for a fact that this is a blatant lie. No matter how progressive a community feels that they are, racism rears its ugly head here and there with those progressives leading the way.

Maybe if we stop pretending that racism is dead and buried and begin to pt it out in the open it can be dealt with. But of course the dominant course of action seems to be the three d’s, disregard, divert and dilute. Which is what I keep hearing from those that feel to acknowledge anything is race baiting. This is also what I hear a lot. First they disregard and comment on how blacks aren’t the only race to be wronged in the past. Then they want to divert your attention from the wrong doing by accusing the informer of some phony ill such as reverse racism or asking if blacks ever participated in whatever wrong you are discussing. Then of course they dilute the atrocity by throwing out some asinine statement about how many people died in correlation to the ill being spoken of.

You can hear these comments anytime you start speaking about any type of racial situation. I feel that calling them out on these facts will probably go nowhere. What can you do? How do we have a conversation about race when the conversation will undoubtedly always need to be had from a place where no blame should ever be placed on anyone? You can not have a conversation about racist behavior in this country if you constantly have to coddle those benefiting from the racist behavior?



Filed under African American, Black community, Black Culture, Black Family, Black People, Life, Minorities, Propaganda, Racism, Random Thoughts, Rant, Social Issues

33 responses to “When Conversations About Race Go Bad

  1. It’s kind of like the FOX News syndrome, whenever we do anything to study the racist nature of American society we have to have a “fair and balanced” report about all the non-racist things white people have done for black people. The dominant society never applies such logic dealing with the black community. When a black person is suspected of crime you never hear about all the other black people who never committed or help to fight crime. When a black person is caught stealing you never hear about all the days he or she didn’t steal. Only when the discussion turns to racism do white people want fair and balanced!


  2. “How do we have a conversation about race …?”

    I think that this might be the bigger question that will undoubtedly have to be answered at some point. Maybe at the end of your question I partially quoted, I should add the word “civilly”. Maybe, maybe not?

  3. BrotherP,

    You have hit a nail on the head on this one. I agree there is constantly these conditions placed on honest dialog about race. Yet, these conditions work one way to an extent. It is as if we can’t criticize behavior of the dominant culture without telling the other side. That is holding us all back from getting things hashed out in a real way.


    The conversation must be civil. Yet, nothing about civility means that we must sugar coat things in order for people to be OK with the conversation. I personally don’t think that a conversation which isn’t civil will be of much help to anyone. And I don’t think that looking at the facts should be hurtful either unless you are in denial about what is actually taking place.

    Civility is a must, yet so is reality.

    Thank both of you for the replies.

  4. TBS-
    Absolutely, reality, however hard it may be to look it in the eye, is a must. I think we as a society spend way too much time trying to sugarcoat everything in some odd attempt to soothe everybody’s apparently way too delicate feelings. It’s so easy to get sucked into this counterproductive PC way of saying things, and yet, it still irritates the living heck out of me. Call it the duality of personal nature.

    Thanks for considering my comments

  5. Mike,

    You are correct that we do spend too much time glossing over everything for everyone. That is why we are so stupid when picking representation in politics. They tell us everything we want to hear and we believe it no matter what. We are not doing ourselves any favor by continuing this stupid way of behaving.

    Thanks for your comments they are productive and intelligent.

  6. Great post. I’m not sure I would agree with the phrasing though, that we need to “take responsibility” for what our forefathers have done. I don’t want to get into nit picking the words because I like the overall context of the blog. Often we whites are too sensitive when it comes to critisism, while at the same time crying reverse racism.

    I guess my question is, “What do you mean when you say, “take responsibility for our forefathers”?

  7. RomChat

    Love reading your blog. Keep the post coming and keep killing them with the truth. You and brotherpeacemaker.

  8. Taking responsibility for our forefathers is like when we take responsibility for defeating the Nazis… Just like we take responsibility when we build statues of Abraham Lincoln. We take responsibility of our forefathers by placing their images on our money. We acknowledge all these things but we don’t want to talk about why we built that statue… The real reason we fought the civil war, not the BS (fantasy land comic book version) but the real reason. This is taking responsibility by telling the truth and not sugar coating every damn thing in this country like all these actions were so f**king holy.
    These things are our history like it or not. The United States of America would not be here if it wasn’t for respecting our forefathers… maybe like The Constitution. I might add that that paper used to say I was 3/5 a human. (Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3)


  9. What I’m say’n is we take responsibility for the good we have to take responsibility for the bad, whether we like it or not… it is what it is. Until we start talking truth we will be stuck having these conversations. If we really started acting like we talk about this country things could be different.
    We’re over in Iraq taking on responsibility, we (the government and the media, is there a difference these days) shun the negative shit and try to tout the positive (what little there is) but when ain’t shit positive going on we don’t hear anything.

    Pardon my back to back post BSentinel.

  10. Damien,

    That is fine to have a back to back post if you are saying something worth hearing. What you said is right on. We have to take responsibility for the bad without the constant need to hear about the good right along with it when it doesn’t serve any point.

    We are forever wanting to talk about the good things in this country (only when connected to the dominant community) then over looking the bad. How do we talk about the Constitution or even the so called founding fathers without seeing that they stole this land. Not only stole it they murdered through genocide the original inhabitants. But, as soon as you talk about that someone will undoubtedly start to ask “but what about all the good that this country has done.”

    None of that matters if we are not willing to look at how we got to this point in time. Since we build our future on the past behaviors we will always be stuck in this quagmire because we refuse to look at what we are building on. Just like people who build on top of old landfills then wonder why their house is sinking into the ground ten years later.

    Thanks for the replies.

  11. Okay, so my question is this:
    How DO we have a conversation on race?

    I realize that you are one person and obviously don’t speak for all black people, but if you were the one moderating the conversation, or setting it up, what would the format look like? Or would there even be a general format?

  12. Mike,

    If I were moderating a talk on race the first thing I would do is to make it a town hall meeting. And I would probably ban any talk that would diminish either sides views on race. Meaning that I would not let black people go down the “you are a racist” road. Or let white people talk about how slavery is over and to get over it type of talk.

    We need to allow people to tell the truth about race. Blacks for too long have been having white people try and explain race issues for us. And then when they hear it from us they don’t understand where this talk is coming from. And I don’t think that black are really listened to. So we would have to let those who are being maligned start the conversation and show the disparity as they see it.

    Then the white people can hopefully take it in and actually look at what is being said objectively even though that is hard for anyone. But just try and see it for what it is and not be so offended by the talk. Then they can tell things how they see it. And then when everyone has hashed out what they see. We can sit and actually dispel myths and put together what is happening and why.

    It would never work, but it sounds nice anyway. Thanks for the reply.

  13. I think you are thinking too much into it.

    It’s not that i’m (white) offended, It’s that i already know these things. Why do i need to know that bad things happen and have happened to you?

    We’re all one race.

    Do not categorize me. I won’t categorize you.

  14. gessyca,

    Obviously, you think black people have never been categorized. I don’t think you know enough of what you’re talking about. If black people weren’t being categorized by the dominant community then we wouldn’t be categorizing. Nobody said bad things never happened to white people. We’re all one race. But somehow black people are the ones who come up short when we measure who benefits and who suffers from any social services or conditions.


  15. Gessyca,

    I am not talking about things necessarily in the PAST. Bad things ARE happening to black people right NOW!!! Do you know, do you care? If you cared then you probably wouldn’t be writing such a reply.

    And I think we both know that this “we are one race” line is a load of crap. I don’t see some members of our race being discriminated against on a daily basis. I don’t see some members of our race being shot 20 to 50 times by the cops with race being the precursor. I don’t see some members of our race having higher incidences of unemployment, incarceration, shoddy health care and below standard living wages.

    But you already know what happened in the past, right? So until you and others admit what IS happening then I guess we still have a problem don’t we?

    Thanks for the reply.

  16. The Engineer


    That is the main concern for Caucasian-Americans. I believe that collectively Caucasian-Americans do not possess enough wealth nor do they have enough earnings to account for their liability.

    So, how much is their liability?

    In Lester Carl Thurow’s book, __Zero Sum Society__, he proposes the best way to address the liability is to enslave Caucasians for 500 or more years and have African-Americans comprise the dominant community during that period. One can imagine that Mr. Thurow’s suggestion was not well received.

    I believe that is the reason for many a Caucasian’s frustration and anxiety over the issue of racism. It is simply easier (and less expensive) to deny its existence.

    Thank you for listening.

  17. The Engineer,

    I have to be honest here. I don’t think that liability is the main issue for most whites. In my experience speaking to various groups about issues of race, I rarely hear whites who genuinely believe there’s a possibility that they’re going to be held financially accountable for the nation’s debt to the descendants of slaves.

    I do agree that fear, of various kinds, seems to be motivating many people to avoid discussing these issues. But I think it tends to be fear of the unknown, fear of talking to people who “aren’t like you,” fear of challenging deeply-held beliefs about our society, and fear of unlocking the anger that some people have on issues of race.

    Just my two cents.

  18. @Sentinel & others

    I did not say that bad things weren’t happening to ya’ll. Bad things happen to everyone. Sometimes..People are low enough to even think that because of your skin color they can be even meaner..

    But you know what? This is a basic human nature… This is what people do. They compare and judge and stare. It starts out in kindergarten…on to middle school, high school.. It’s about the clothes you wear, the people you ‘hang out with.’ Where does this come from? Instinct. People are social animals.. They need to feel ‘accepted.’

    Where does this fit in here? Well.. I have been in places where i was the only white student. I was beat up nearly every day, picked on, One middle aged woman who worked there actually wrote a fake police report on me just to get me in more trouble…
    Human nature. If things were reversed.. Then i would feel your pain of inequality just as you are feeling it now..
    I’m sorry for what white people do. I’m sorry for the world and what goes on here..
    I’m sorry that we are not evolved enough to tackle such an issue. Until then, It’s not about black and white for me. It never will be again since then..It’s about people and their instincts.

  19. Gessyca,

    I am sorry that you were picked on and abused in a situation where you were the minority. You can see how this can feel. I understand that “everyone” has bad things happening. That is not the issue. The issue is that blacks are suffering daily for a lifetime. We are being denied the basic liberties that others are allowed to have.

    We are denied fair employment and wages, health care, housing and life without discrimination. That is the issue. What are we going to do about these issues? We can’t just chalk it up to not being evolved enough. We are evolved enough to tackle treatment of people in other nations when we feel they are being abused. Why not the black people in our own country? Is that we just don’t care?

    Thanks for the reply.

  20. Denied? Like people should just hand things to you because there are bigots in the world? Are you implying that the black community is having a disaster of sorts and needs some government assistance?
    I don’t follow you on that last paragraph. People are not ‘fair’ when it comes to NOT ONLY RACE but age, sex, decent, etc..etc..etc..
    I don’t see how someone sitting behind their computer can feel like they are entitled to something.
    You have a home.

  21. gessyca,

    America’s history has been very disastrous for the black community. People like to overlook what is happening in the black community as just an unfortunate circumstance, but it is much more than that. If you care to look at any social statistic with an open mind and you will see that the black community comes up short when measured to our white counterparts.

    For example, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that black people make only seventy percent the wages of white people. Some black people do well and make considerably more than the average white person. But there are also many black people who come up considerably short than white people for the same job, experience, etcetera.

    You say that there is age discrimination. But within that category I am willing to bet the black people in that age group are hit harder than the white people in that age group. I don’t know what you mean by decent. But if we talk about gender discrimination I’m sure that black women will come up short when compared against white women.

    Just because we have homes doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t speak out on behalf of the people who don’t. What’s your point?

    theblacksentinel is not saying that she is entitled to anything. What she is saying is that the system is typically skewed against black people. This offends a lot of people who prefer to keep the status quo of white privilege and black subjugation.

    A lot of people make the excuse that we don’t have to do anything for the black community because black people feel entitled. We’ll go to Iraq and Afghanistan to bring freedom and democracy to people half a world away. What did we owe them? How come they were entitled to the United States spending a trillion dollars and more than four thousand troop lives?

    America will do more for the people in Israel than it will for its black communities right in its backyard. Why? Black people sit behind computers and talk about the injustice of America. We want handouts.

    This is such a misleading load of misinformation. No one is advocating that undeserving black people should be given jobs because there are bigots in the world. Such an advocation is not only preposterous but would end up being self defeating. Companies that simply gave any black person a job would not stay in business for long. Such logic only demonstrates people’s disdain for the issue at hand.

    But there are many black people who have the skills, experience, aptitude, education, or whatever is required, who are regularly denied employment or a higher education or housing. A lot of people will say we are supposed to be one America. The only thing is that blacks make up most of the bottom while white people make up the most of the top.


  22. Gessyca,

    I guess you don’t have ANY clue about the FACTS which by the way they announce on the news constantly that blacks make 78% of what white people earn, blacks are way more likely to receive bad or substandard health care, blacks are denied home loans or given substandard home loans even when they have superior credit and or the same credit score as their home loan getting white counterpart. Blacks are ten times more likely to be denied renting homes or apartments simply because of race, blacks are systematically denied jobs even when they are the best candidate. Need I go on?

    But of course like you said Gessyca, someone should just hand me something because bigots are in the world. How about ALLOWING ME to get my fair share? Or is that too much to ask as a black person. See this is the white mindset that keeps blacks from participating fully in the American dream. Somehow asking for equality is asking for a handout, or asking for something they don’t deserve.

    In case you didn’t understand RACE seems to trump age, gender and all the other discrimination out there. Women are twice as likely as a black man to be given a home loan or a job. But hey women are discriminated against so racial discrimination is not so bad now, right?

    And I don’t see why white people such as yourself sit in the fucking WORLD and think you are entitled to something more than everyone else constantly. If that were not the case then we wouldn’t have so much rampant discrimination and racism. So why don’t you go and chew on that for awhile. I don’t ask for special treatment, but people like you feel they are entitled to it. You have already stated that sure you get special treatment but hey that’s not your fault. But it doesn’t seem to hurt you either.

    Get a clue, you ARE the problem. Thanks

  23. Gessyca,

    Just this week in the Nation July 14th edition article called The subprime swindle how banks stole black America’s future by Kai Wright. They said that “in 1967…homes accounted for 67% of black wealth compared with 40% of white wealth, the disparity has only grown, pushed by the turn-of-the-millenium stock market boom.

    Without counting home equity, black net worth in 2004 was just 1 percent of that for whites, according to research by New York University economics professor Edward Wolff.

    And I guess according to you, blacks got that 1 little percent compared to white wealth because of our incessant begging for handouts. How come blacks only have 1% the wealth of whites? According to you it isn’t because we are being denied anything. I guess we are just a bunch of losers who don’t want anything, which is probably a kin to your thinking.


  24. Akinwole

    Most of the time I do not know where to weigh in when confronting the Worldly Beast known as THE INSTITUTION OF RACISM. It is a well bread and viberant Spirit that is on its mission.
    It is more fortified and determined, more scientific and more ESTABLISHED than ever before.
    It will continue to weeken our self determination drive and one day our children will look around tolally realize that we have become so obsolite that they can nolonger affect the outcome of their lives. They will not respect nor honor us. We will have NO influence over them. Nor will we control them and if we do not control our childern we can not protect them…. We must go back to the Roots of our survival and advancement in this world. We must Vow to Persevere, make every personal sacrafice necessary, be patient with the time it will take (after all we have gone in a backward direction in our thing and acting) and BE COMMITTED TO BEING COURAGEOUS because it will take every bit that we can collectively muster, for we will be at War. No doubt about it!
    If we do not like what we are getting, we must stop doing what we are doing. If we continue to sit around waiting for Jesus and orisha to change our self imposed conditions, WE “ain’t neber gona git up outa dis” GRAVE.
    I AM Akinwole

  25. Akinwole

    I am so grateful that you are doing the work that you are doing.
    May you live in perfect health
    May your love one be in perfect health
    May peace, love, happiness, harmony and prosperity be always around you.
    May the relations between you and your be blissful and devine.

    I AM Akinwole

  26. Frank

    Well okay, here’s a white mail (the oppresor’s) take.

    Racism is definitely present. And whites tend to be on the better end of it most of the time.

    However, tackle it on a case by case basis. When you say that whites don’t want to have a conversation on race, I’m not sure what you mean. If you mean that I don’t feel like going to a bunch of general speeches and forums on race relations and the history of racism in America – yeah that’s true, I’m busy, I don’t feel like spending my time on that.

    While it may be true that racism has & sometimes (unfortunately) continues to benefit us, bringing us to the table and generally telling us to acknowledge our crimes in a broad general sense doesn’t do much good. So what? We’re supposed to sit there, listen to how bad our ancestors gave it to your ancestors and how bigots operate today, and leave feeling bad or responsible for it? And if we do feel bad after that? What do you propose white people do?

    When I went to school, I went to quite a few racial speeches and there was a lot of laundry-listing of all of the past crimes of white people, which sometimes went into borderline anti-whitism (which whatever, we’re all prejudiced, no biggie). But afterwards, I was like “okay, that was informative, time to do homework” and didn’t think or DO much about race relations after that.

    See this is part of the point. Many times people feel an inspired need to inform people of general history and problems today in race relations. While it’s good to know that, it only goes so far. If you get white people to accept their crimes, great, then what do you want them to do? Did you have some goal in mind for a positive outcome afterwards, or did you just want to tell them off?

    See, in these conversations, I often find a lack of specific focus on what the positive outcome should be or what actions should be taken. For this reason, I think that specific focus on clear & present race issues and what to do about them is the goal.

    Things like this would be more helpful
    – There is discrimination by a particular US city, here’s what’s happening and how we should work to stop it
    – There’s discrimination in general in the workplace, here’s a few program we propose to educate people against that and how to spot racism on the job and report it.
    – Etc.

    So, please, make the discussions more focused on positive change, and less on just telling white people how oppressive they’ve been. I’m willing to get on board and work towards better change, but if I feel like I’m just being read a laundry list for the purpose of me feeling remorseful about it then I’ve got better things to do.

  27. Frank,

    How about this question, what do YOU think white people should do? Why is it always black people who need to figure out for white people what needs to be done. White people aren’t a bunch of stupid children who can’t think for themselves. Do you really think that after hearing that racism is STILL a big problem today that you can’t figure out what needs to be done? Really?

    I mean you could decide that you are not going to sit idly by while disparity takes place. You could decide that you will make it your goal to face white privilege when you know damn well you are receiving it. There are a lot of things you could do. But for you to say that you don’t have time, you don’t want to be bothered is just more white privilege.

    You have a CHOICE not to be bothered or not to care, I don’t. I HAVE to deal with it and to care about it. This is the precise reason why the race problems, the disparity and the white privilege NEVER goes away. Because white people such as yourself don’t have time and don’t care to hear about it. So exactly when will you have time, start to care or decide to take action?

    And so you feel that I should make it easy for you and other whites by being positive. Because somehow that will do what for ending racism? Because it seems to me that all you actually want is to NOT have to hear about what is happening right in your face so that you won’t have to deal with it. If you feel remorse then it is probably because you have reason to. No one can make you remorseful for something you have no control over. So I guess you know deep inside that you do have some control and are either too bothered or too whatever to do anything.

    And now the million dollar question for you, what ARE you doing to make positive change or do you need a black person to lay out the plans first?

    Thanks for the reply.

  28. Okay, so I think, to a point Frank has a point here.
    And not to be a stickler (well okay you know i have to be a technical bastard at times), but you do kind of dodge his question. We acknowledge racism and white privilege, etc, and obviously not everyone is going to see it as a problem because well, they’re ignorant and hateful and stubborn to accepting blacks as equal. But really….WHAT NOW??
    Where DO we go after the acknowledgement. We could keep holding forums and whatnot, but eventualy you’ll reach a point of saturation where its a party of like-minded people listening to each other talk, kind of like the democrat and republican conventions in politics.
    And sure, to answer your question to Frank, why not have a black persn lay the plans out first…if anything, given your natural exposure to the whole concept, you or some other black person should be able to see the way towards solutions, better than those of us who benefit from the status quo.

  29. Hey Mike L,

    The problem isn’t acknowledging it that is just one step in a process. Once a guy acknowledges that he is abusing his wife , what’s next? Does he continue to beat her until she comes up with a plan or should he take some responsibility and make a change.

    My problem is that the plans already have been laid out. We have gone over, around, under and through the plan and it seems that we still haven’t gotten to around to finishing this mess. People constantly say things such as these things take time etc. But, it only takes time when it isn’t a priority for ALL of us.

    I am sorry but I personally don’t agree because this isn’t a black problem or something that we are into by ourselves. This is a problem in which blacks and whites are involved equally in this, so everyone needs to take an initiative. This isn’t rocket science we all know or at least have a pretty good idea as to what can and should be done to help progress things along.

    The problem is that people and I mean all people are resistant to things that go against the grain. It is difficult for people to call attention to racist situations or say no when something is happening purely because of white privilege. Because it is hard to stand out and be different. But, most black people are always being put in situations where they are the stand out or different. So it isn’t a big deal for me to take one more leap and call out people on being racist.

    Oh and I did not disagree totally with what Frank said. The problem with what he said to me was so selfish. I am tired of hearing it, or I don’t want to hear it etc. I don’t have that luxury. Now if everyone were to hold this attitude when it came to rape or child abuse people would be appalled. Does this guy actually believe that we should let the abuser continue abusing until the abuse victim comes up with the plans for it to end.

    I think this guy somehow rubs me wrong. Thanks for the reply Mike.

  30. Damien

    We as blacks need to do our part and whites need to do their part.

    it’s not easy for neither side. It is easier for one side to ignore the other cuz of the comfort level. But, the comfort level is get’n thin around these parts these days for all.

    White people need to start check’n each other. Black people need to continue to check ourselves… gain knowledge of who we are so hopefully we can come together and use our voice collectively and deal with whites on an economic and social level equally. Whites need to stop feeling like negotiating with us is taking away from them. Give up the damn privilige and we all will have something and this society will be better off.
    Like what Tim Wise was saying. White kids gets passes to do what they please and grow up to be President Bush. Exactly what Chris Rock said when a Black kid can be mediocre and still be successful that is when we’ve arrived in a place of some kind of equality.
    Black kids get no pass, nor help, nor understanding and go to jail and/or get killed. Dismissed.

    But, we’ve had to suffer for months about Caylee Anthony on the television(no disrespect to the little girl). I’m sure there are more issues that deserve national airtime. Like really educating our children and get off this fairy tale education system we’re in now.

    Let us all, whites and blacks demand some damn responsibility from the people we give our money to. Everyone will be better off. How about that for an idea.

  31. Damien,

    I think you did a much better job than I did getting that point across. Great points made for sure.

    Thanks for the reply.

  32. To all the readers:
    I’m still formulating my infant ideas on working towards solving at least some of the smaller technical issues within the poor and minority communities, and could use all the help I can get, but if you all could check out this page: http://mike4ccr.wordpress.com/
    and let me know where I need/can go from the standstill of conceptualization where I am currently at, I’d appreciate it.

  33. I hope that everyone goes and has a look at this information. Personally I feel that this is one of the best ideas I’ve heard someone actually trying to put in to place.

    Thanks for the link Mike.

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